Hypothetical question for 3pp: 5e goes OGL what would you publish?

ShinHakkaider

Adventurer
I don't know how the volume will compare over time, but Paizo publishes at a healthy clip. We've had Adventure Paths based on desert, ice, sea, pirates, undead, Asian nations... I'm sure I'm forgetting a few tropes, but at some point we've hit most people's preferences.

And now we're starting to see the not so typical tropes in the AP's which I dont think should be included in the talk about diminishing returns as they are not rule books but adventures. As long as there is an idea for adventures it's fresh product. For all that you might as well call movies and TV shows and Fiction books diminishing returns as well.

We've had obvious and non-obvious new classes. We've gone beyond the core mythological creatures and into the weird. We've published books with names like "Ultimate" and "Advanced". It's very similar to Complete Arcane and Complete Mage, or Player's Handbook II. What's beyond Advanced? What's Beyond Ultimate?

And what are they supposed to call this books? Player's Handbook II, Dungeon Masters Guide II? I think the obviousness in WOTC trying to streeeeeeetch things during the 3x era was pretty in our face. Did we really need a Complete Arcane AND Complete Mage? No. But Ultimate Magic is a pretty definitive book for Arcane spell casters as Ultimate Combat is the same for martial characters. I'd like to think that there is nothing beyond Ultimate other than II or a III at the end of the title.

The way diminishing returns works, you already had some who would say, "look, I don't need an Ultimate Equipment Guide, I've got plenty of equipment." The market becomes really small for something like "Super Ultimate Equipment Guide". That's diminishing returns.

The fact that you said that about Ultimate Equipment Guide shows that youre not exactly sure what that product is. Is there new material in the book? Sure. I dont think people will by a book with nothing but older material in it . But for the most part it's filled with mundane stuff, magical stuff that was spread out over several other Pathfinder books that not everyone owns. Stuff from AP's, stuff from Modules, Player's Companions etc. All in one book. So now youre not trying to remember where that one odd magic item came from. Because it's in the Ultimate Equipment Guide.

Take a look at this incredible poll results page. It's a poll run on Chris Perkins' awesome The Dungeon Master Experience series. He asked readers (primarily DMs) which books they liked. We can see clear diminishing sales. The DMG has 3.8% that don't express an opinion or don't own it. The DMG 2, 17%. Monster Manual 1: 5.6%, 2: 15.7%, 3: 19.3%, MV: 31.9%, MV:NV: 44.6%. The results are the same for any line of books, including ones that are drastically better toward the end (as with Monster Vault: Nentir Vale).

I'm not going to do that because this seems to be very WOTC specific (people polled are obviously 4E players and GM's) as it's from WOTC for WOTC materials. That coupled with the fact that you are a WOTC proponent wont allow me to look at whatever information that is there without bias. Sorry.


I can't, because they are a friend.
I understand completely and totally respect that.
 

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darjr

I crit!
With 4E there has been a wealth of content, both official and unofficial. While the unofficial material has mostly been fan-generated, it has at times been incredibly useful and influential. I've met tons of DMs that transformed their campaigns or adventures based on free material online, all while still buying official content. The best example of this may be Fourthcore, significant enough to be called a 'movement' by many. While what it brought forth wasn't always for everyone, it influenced most 4E gamers in some way.

Around here I'm the only one who's heard of it, and I've never even been to their site, I don't recall.

Edit to add that around here physically, in my local gaming area, not at ENWorld.
 
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darjr

I crit!
Alphastream, I don't find your argument that the OGL is bad for innovation convincing. Arguably one of the most successful rpg's out right now is OGL and look what we have.

FATE is hugely successful and is also OGL. 13th Age is OGL and a huge success. Numenera is hugely successful, but not OGL. The new Star Wars game is VERY different from d20 and is a huge success. Dungeon World is certainly successful and very much not d20, in fact in many ways I think it competes directly with d20 D&D like games. I think diversity in gaming and the hobby is doing just fine.
 
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Gundark

Explorer
Every responsible company has business plans. Every company should want profit and most should want to grow. Customers should want companies in their hobby to grow. I wish upon every RPG company plenty of growth and profit, because that grows our hobby. But, the RPG model has so far shown that after a while we see stagnation. Every RPG wrestles with the problem that each successive book will see declining interest. Out of 1,000 gamers, 500 might like the core book. Only 200 might care for the DM book. Of those 200, only 160 might like the book on undead. And only 100 might like the book on a forest setting. RPG companies wrestle with that, because it is a cycle that kills business. With 3E, that cycle had fully played out. And the customer base was already seeing Wizards as having pressed too far with 3.5 on top of 3.0. Only an outside competitor could, under the very true auspices of "you don't have to leave 3E", update the rules and republish everything. That was key. Now it wasn't evil WotC republishing our game for money-grubbing reasons, it was Paizo swooping in to republish our game so we could keep playing the edition.

BOOM!..Headshot!
 

ShinHakkaider

Adventurer
The idea behind not having an OGL isn't to make life for gamers worse. It is simply that, look, life was just fine without one,

See this is the part of the argument that I have huge problems with and it's one that I'm afraid that I cant get past and is and will continue to be a HUGE sticking point. YOU got along just fine without one. I did as well. Although I was patching and creating content for my own games when there was stuff that I wanted to add.
I have no interest in spending that much time patching and creating material for RPG's. And am perfectly fine with having other designers and developers doing that. Especially if the designers and developers of the system of origin cant be bothered.

A smaller unit (as in a 3rd party company) can get rolling on an idea quicker than a company like WOTC or maybe even Paizo. They can zig and zag where WOTC will have to slow down to stop then turn around.

the benefits of one are minor,
Again, TO YOU. To me the benfits are GREAT.

and the downsides to the company and even the hobby are considerable.

I'm still failing to understand why the OGL is bad for the hobby. Your entire argument seems to hinge on brand loyalty. If I'm not loyal to the brand that youre loyal to then I'm not going to agree with you or really care. Which is the case here.

I think that as long as people are creating SOMETHING it's valid. Youre basically saying that if theyre not creating something relevant to YOU it's not valid for the hobby. This is something that I pretty obviously disagree with. Mutants and Masterminds is OGL and it's as valid as hell. I have three Editions of this game. It's a great game and it's OGL.

Trailblazer is OGL and was an excellent breakdown of the the 3x system that offered ways to "fix" and "balance" the system and otherwise do things to alter your 3x gaming experience.

Youre basically saying that these things are BAD because they dont directly support the brand that you support. I disagree. VEHEMENTLY.

Those downsides to the hobby include having third parties overly focused on a single game, rather than out creating their own cool RPGs or system neutral material.

So again. You dont want them making things for the game that I want to play. You want them making new things that I may or may not like or even worse things that I'm going to have a difficult time finding players for as opposed to my game of preference.

With Paizo, for example, the number of monsters is staggering. It's really okay for third parties to stop making new monsters and create system neutral material with how we could use existing monsters in better ways, or just go create their own games.

Again, YOU: Stop supporting thier game of choice and do something else.

That's how we end up with Dungeon World and 13th Age and other innovations instead of a "d20 complete guide to (insert name of obscure monster here)".

Dungeon World is actually a game I'm interested in playing in but it's pretty much not going to pull me away from Pathfinder. I have NO interest in 13th Age as it seems that it might have too much 4E baggage. And I have no interest in playing or running anything close to 4E again.

Accept or play an edition that I dont like because why again?
Because, generally, it takes gamers a while to like a new edition. It took me a while to like 3E. When I had played enough 3E to burn out, I was still resistant to what I saw in 4E. But, I gave it a try and started to see why it was a very fun and excellent edition. Previous to the OGL, 99% of gamers would stick with a new edition and try it out, learning its positive qualities and usually getting hooked. We saw with 4E plenty of gamers call it an MMO and refuse to even try it. They could do that in part because the OGL enabled competitors to keep adding new material to an old edition - a massive sea change for DnD. Facilitating ways for your customer base to stay on an old edition is brutal in an industry where you have to launch new editions to have a chance to be profitable.

D00d really? I mean REALLY? Do you hear yourself? You essentially want to FORCE people into playing a new edition of YOUR preferred game whether they want to or not? Saying that they didnt give it a real chance? When did you become the arbiter of how much of a chance gamers should give a game?

I gave it a chance. I bought the 4E gift set even though I had my misgivings about the system. I ran games for it. I played in a playtest session here in NYC prior to the games release. I created encounters and tried to convert a few levels of B2 (which is my go to conversion for any new edition) and run players through that. And it didnt work for me. I DIDNT LIKE THE GAME. It wasnt fun for me. It's not a bad game. It just wasnt for me. But according to you I was supposed to keep playing until I liked it? Are you being serious with this? I play these games FOR FUN. If it's not fun then why on God's green earth am I doing it?

I have real issues with your line of thinking on this. This whole support the brand of my preference unilaterally because any other way hurts the hobby? My thing is PLAY WHAT YOU ENJOY. Not PLAY WHAT ALPHASTREAM thinks you should. Wow D00d...

And please stop trying to insinuate that just because people dont like a new edition that they are resistant to change. That's just as VILE and inaccurate as when people say that 4E is an MMO. It's a form of shaming people and it's just wrong man. If I were resistant to change would I seriously be branching out into boardgames? or 4E based board games like Castle Ravenloft, Wrath of Ashraldolon and Legend of Drzzt? All of which I own? Would I picked up M&M 3rd Edition or the PDF of Dungeon World? I dont care for story games so that's not my thing but I actually wouldnt mind playing in a game of Fiasco. But I'm not a 4E fan so that makes me close minded and resisitant to change? Please Stop.

Speaking of that, you really should give organized play another chance. It has changed a lot on the Wizards side. Events like Vault of the Dracolich and Candlekeep have brought some of the best of organized play excitement without the "old grognard network" or other issues that hurt living campaigns. It's good fun DnD. (I'm a co-author for both of the ones I mentioned, so I'm biased, but I also think the upcoming Legacy of the Crystal Shard launch event is a really fun introductory gameday adventure).

D00d, if I'm avoiding Paizo Organized Play like the plauge? Paizo, a company who's game I enjoy and support? Why, for the love of all that is holy, would I want to play in a WOTC OP? WOTC, who produces a game that absolutely DO NOT enjoy or support?

Even if I loved the hell out of 4E? (and again, I DON'T) I wouldnt do OP. I CAN'T STAND IT. I'm sure that there are cool people who play but most of the type of person who play in OP are the type of players that I dont really want to be around, run games for or play with. Sorry.

Hopefully I've made myself clearer. The OGL is actually what creates limits!
Sorry I really dont buy this.

- If the OGL isn't good for a company, then they shouldn't have one. They have a necessity to be profitable, and we should want that for them because it is good for the hobby.
I agree with the first. Because you cant begrudge a company operating in it's own best interest. However if a company doenst have a OGL it makes me seriously think twice about purchasing it or supporting it.
What's good for the hobby is the ability for me to play and run games that I enjoy playing and running. If a company isnt helping me do that? Then I DONT CARE about what's good for that company.

- If the OGL encourages third parties to churn out content (especially poor content) for a single game, then the OGL is hurting the game by creating a glut of content and lowering the overall quality of the game.

And when the OGL encourages the generation of really good and great content? THE OGL IS AWESOME.

- If the OGL prevents gamers from giving new editions a fair chance, then it is a problem for the company and even for gamers. Gamers should be open to new games and are usually better off trying many games rather than settling into a single game/edition for perpetuity.

OH MY GOD. The OGL DOES NOT PREVENT GAMERS FROM GIVING NEW EDITIONS A FAIR CHANCE. This is so wrong headed and self serving it's not even funny. You want to know how I know this is true?

Because everyone who is actually playing 4E and other games? ARE PLAYING 4E AND OTHER GAMES.

The OGL didnt stop them (and you I might add) from playing what you want to play.

Unlike what you are trying to do by pretty much flat out saying that if you dont play the newest version of the game that YOU prefer that that gamer is somehow being effected by the OGL! They are weak/close minded and therefore the OGL must go away. Only then will those errant gamers see the errors of thier ways!! What is this?!? The Borg collective?!? LOL!

- If the OGL encourages multiple versions of DnD, that can create a hobby where the top games are DnD, DnD, DnD, etc. That isn't good for the hobby. It is a stronger game when companies are creating real challenges in the form of different games with real innovation. Shadowrun, Call of Cthulhu, Legend of the Five Rings, FIASCO, FATE, Numenera... those are different systems that truly innovate and grow the hobby.

Youre touting the support of your game of choice and other games that have nothing to do with your game of choice. Basically you dont want D&D competing with itself? Despite the fact that people actually enjoy playing these older editions and OGL variants? Man that's just EVIL. LOL.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
Your comment about reprints is a good one. It's one I wrestle with often. I have trouble believing the reprints, as beautiful as they are, will sell very well. They are releasing material compatible for 3E, such as Encounters, but is that really going to do much for sales? Though I travel a lot, I have met only a very small number of gamers that play 3E over Pathfinder. Maybe WotC can pull a few from PF back to 3E with reprints... but I really can't see that being significant. I don't really understand the reprint strategy for the 3E material. (I do for older classic stuff, as that is generally harder to find for most gamers and has a 'classic' and collectible value for many).
I think the 3E reprints are all about DDN. They are a mea culpa - an apology to 3E fans for the "crush the heretic edition" approach they took last time (and 3E fans got the rough end of).

And I think it's effective, to a degree. There are some folk who will never forgive, but there certainly seem to be some who have been mollified enough to give DDN a look, at least.

Okay, but keep in mind we're talking about what to do in the future. Wizards should learn from the problems of the OGL and either not create one or create a different type of OGL for D&D Next. They have a responsibility for their business, so the OGL should be re-examined carefully.
Could the OGL be sharpened to deal with a few (minor) issues not envisaged by its creators? Undoubtedly. But we were talking about market intelligence a little earlier; there is absolutely nothing like seeing how well an innovative product sells for market intelligence - even (especially?) if that product is produced by a competitor.

What business in general really needs to learn, in my opinion - and especially the games business, since they should understand game systems and processes better than anybody - is how to compete constructively. So many business folk see competition as a zero-sum game. The genius of the OGL was, in part, that it saw past that. If you can get 10% more share of the pie than the next guy that's swell - but if the pie is twice as big, everybody gains! No one company can give the customers everything they want - so generate lots of companies to do it! Show all your competitors what you are doing (while keeping a tight hold on your branding) and you can all learn off each other what the customer wants.

Good grief, I have seen so often unproductive, blinkered and paranoid "competition" - I have even known companies (plural) who got so blinded by beating their competitors with certain customers that they were making a loss on their top-ranked clients!! The more they sold them, the more they lost - but they didn't even realise it and were too busy making sure they kept all that "premium" business to notice - it was insane. This was in the Chemical Industry, too, so you might even know some of the companies (I'm picking up that you are in Chemical Engineering - my first degree also - but that might be inaccurate).

They just need to wise up about ways they can compete that are constructive for the industry as a whole instead of destructive.

I don't think any of those are a valid model for DnD. Sure, DnD could be just a small game with a single edition and the WotC just writes different games, as Pelgrane does. Or maybe it just lives off of other games, the way Steve Jackson does with Munchkin.
Think more in terms of a GURPS model - rules modules with settings and such besides. And different systems too, maybe, that cater to specific different tastes/styles.

What WotC would have, with the OGL in place, is the D&D brand. They can sell OGL material with the assurance of quality that the brand gives. Does that mean they have to be very careful to keep up brand quality and coherence? Yes!! That's exactly what I mean by "healthy for WotC"! Being incentivised to keep your brand quality high is absolutely healthy - it's the very essence of much of what I have been saying, in fact. There's a lot to be said for looking at brand value as brand quality times how well known the brand is. Marketing can do lots about the last part, but if the brand quality is crap (and you're not the only brand in town) it will all be for nought.

Back to the RPG, it still doesn't benefit from an OGL in either case. The OGL's benefits were supposed to be core book sales. No one has wanted to gut the RPG department down to just reselling the core books, thankfully. That initial vision would have been disastrous. Beyond that, the OGL creates competition, waters down your product line, creates product confusion, and hurts the industry by overly focusing on a single game rather than having third parties create their own innovations.
The "core books only" idea was, frankly, dumb from the get-go. It's the opposite of the case above, almost: keeping 30% of the market value is worth squat if the market shrivels away to nothing. And if you sold only core books, it would - the 3pps would create their own systems if there was no synergy to plug into, I reckon. And with no synergy for your core books, the line would die.

On innovations: there will always be innovation in the marketplace. Plenty of indie games started up during the 3.x era, and towards the end there were plenty of non-D&D d20 games coming along, too. Having a core system to noodle around and expand upon makes it easier for new companies to get an entry to the market - and that's helpful to innovation in the long term.

At the moment we're seeing a flowering of new games through Kickstarter which is great but really doesn't have any connection to the OGL one way or the other. Having a route for new ventures to raise capital, without the risk of bank loans, from people who actually know the product is fantastic. For too long large areas of innovation have been limited because the people with the money didn't know or care about the markets these ventures want to serve. But that can happen with or without an OGL or equivalent.

Plenty on the staff have d20 3rd party experience - that's not lacking. Similarly, they play different games all the time. Follow their Twitter feeds and see they have played L5R, FIASCO, Dungeon World, Numenera, FATE, 13th Age, etc. They are part of a vibrant community of gamers and they run and take turns in home games with various larger groups. They have a very healthy exposure to games these days.
"These days" that may well be true - but both managers and designers seemed to lack exposure in the past. Or maybe the limitations generated by the internal processes just made it seem that way? I dunno.
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I just assumed the reprints were there to fill the gap until DDN. I didn't think thee was much in a way of motive further than that, though capturing some old school players would be a nice bonus.
 

Alphastream

Adventurer
I'm not going to do that because this seems to be very WOTC specific (people polled are obviously 4E players and GM's) as it's from WOTC for WOTC materials. That coupled with the fact that you are a WOTC proponent wont allow me to look at whatever information that is there without bias. Sorry.

I'm sorry too. It's a real shame your bias towards one game prevents you from learning about the industry as a whole.

I'll be clear: I'm not a fan of WotC. I'm a HUGE fan of WotC. But, I'm also a HUGE admirer of Paizo. They really rock. I can't be a bigger fan of Mona and Bulmahn - they are living legends and incredible gamers. SRM is such a great guy - guaranteed laughs and all the warmth in the world to match his incredible talent. And I'm a huge fan of what Catalyst is doing with Shadowrun and how they promote their team. I can't find enough ways to sing the praises of what Pelgrane is doing with 13th Age, and especially of what Rob Heinsoo and Jonathan Tweet did with that game, or how they ran the playtest process and evolved the game. Rob, with his incredible board and card games, pretty much walks on water in my book. I'm just an immense fan of 13th Age. I am a huge fan of how Evil Hat runs a business. I absolutely love what the Eclipse Phase / Transhuman guys do with their open model and Adam Jury is just incredible. I'm a huge fan of how Legend of the Five Rings works - an incredible blend of setting and RP in a combat system. I am such a fan of how FIASCO works as a framework for open gaming. I could go on.

If you want to stay away from the games towards which I'm biased, you'll need to avoid reading about a lot of RPGs...

Seriously, diminishing returns isn't some fiction. It's obvious. Only a portion of an audience that likes a core book is going to like any successive sourcebook. Publishers know that, so they start with the stuff that has the most appeal. As they keep publishing, they get into narrower and narrower slices of the audience. This is a reality of the business. As was pointed out, you can stay shallow and just publish completely different games. But, if you want to publish an actual product line for an edition, diminishing returns is a harsh reality that really hurts the business and a prime reason why major RPGs launch new editions. It's why we have a fifth edition of Shadowrun, a fourth edition of Legend of the Five Rings, a third edition of Spycraft, several editions of Savage Worlds, several of Cthulhu, etc. (Yes, designers also like to perfect things, but diminishing returns is the business driver).
 

Alphastream

Adventurer
Alphastream, I don't find your argument that the OGL is bad for innovation convincing. Arguably one of the most successful rpg's out right now is OGL and look what we have.

FATE is hugely successful and is also OGL. 13th Age is OGL and a huge success. Numenera is hugely successful, but not OGL. The new Star Wars game is VERY different from d20 and is a huge success. Dungeon World is certainly successful and very much not d20, in fact in many ways I think it competes directly with d20 D&D like games. I think diversity in gaming and the hobby is doing just fine.

When I'm arguing that the OGL is a problem, I'm saying that in the context of Wizards of the Coast, the upcoming D&D Next edition, and the 3E OGL language.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm a huge fan of an OGL for most other companies. Smaller companies can greatly benefit from the marketing, community, and support created via an OGL. An OGL is an excellent idea for 13th Age and FATE (listen to Fred Hicks on podcasts - an OGL ties right into his strategy). I'm a huge fan of Eclipse Phase being completely open and even seeding its own torrents and creating "hack packs" so the community can hack up the product. Those are brilliant strategies for a smaller game. For all the reasons I've mentioned, I don't find the 3E OGL to be good for Wizards of the Coast.

I also mentioned this earlier, but it is interesting to note that Monte Cook Games made some important changes to its OGL (as compared to the 3E OGL) to protect against the issues I've talked about. Monte has been a big fan of the OGL, but even MCG took steps to add in revenue sharing and an up-front cost to companies wanting to profit from the open license. Those are the kinds of changes I think Wizards should also be considering if they want to use an OGL.
 


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