D&D 5E What do we know about The Sundering?

[fjw70]

I thought I heard the 5e Realms were going to support both the non-4e version and the 4e version so I assumed the Sundering would create two parallel Realms, one in which the SP happened and another where it didn't.

 

[Jester David]

It doesn't really sound likely to get those FR fans who didn't like 4e back on board. I'd expect they would play in a FR that never experienced a Spellplague and 4e.

4e fans aren't going to be too keen on taking the 4e out of the Realms.

It's probably a misnomer to call it the "4e Realms". I used the term too, so my bad. 95% of the problematic or unpopular changes had nothing to do with the edition (+/- 5%).

WotC has said that the Sundering falling so close to the launch of 5e is coincidental. Not sure if I believe it, but I don't believe WotC would lie directly to the fan's faces. The Sundering is less about transitioning to a new edition and more about fixing the world post-Spellplague.
As such, the changes will be largely edition agnostic. You can play post-Sundering with 3rd Edition or 4th Edition or 13th Age or even Fate.
It's more about capturing a feeling that was lost. Adjusting the tone of the a Realms.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

Thanks @Scrivener of Doom - you pretty much answered all of my questions, except for one: Do we know when the last installment comes out?

It sounds like they're trying to pull off one of those "It was all just a weird dream" moves with 4e.

Sorry, mate, but I don't. I know there are three more to come and the next two are Scourge of the Sword Coast and Dead in Thay.

Personaly I think that MiBG is an excellent adventure.

Warder

Yeah, my pathological dislike for MiBG puts me in a minority... and I wonder if my liking of LotCS will also put me in a minority!

(snip) So Abir and Torril are separating again, which is how they're going to return all the lost nations. (snip)
So far this has just been in the background. It drives the story in adventures, but this is really the set-up of the events. And supposedly the novels are just telling side stories or personal adventures caused by the Sundering. So far they haven't revealing where the actual events of the Sundering will be detailed. So at the moment it's just this big, meta background event.

Abeir and Toril.

Yeah, we still don't know how The Sundering itself will be detailed.

I suspect... very badly.

Really? What sense does it make?

I thought it was just going to be another "rift" in the history of FR's metaplot, but not a "rewind" to a previous status...

And I think I remember them saying that since 5e, it should be possible to play FR at different point in history, although what does this mean I have no idea, since you could do that in any edition already, as long as you do all the job yourself.

Also, wasn't there some announcement that the exact details of 5e FR would depend on the results of gamers playing the Sundering adventures at specific conventions or worldwide FLGS events?

Gamer input is going to have modest effect.

Look, I like the 4E Realms and I get what WotC was trying to do with them and even agree with what they did (except for including a completely useless, totally ugly world map using the colour palette of a baby's diaper) but I am in a minority. That said, I reckon they're crazy not to simply reset the world to 1375DR and pretend the Spellplague never happened.

Unfortunately, The Sundering is being driven by R A Salvatore, in particular, and his novels make more money than everything else so he's getting the world and the timeline that he wants.

It doesn't really sound likely to get those FR fans who didn't like 4e back on board. I'd expect they would play in a FR that never experienced a Spellplague and 4e. (snip) I guess I'm not sure who the Sundering is aimed at. Maybe its all about Drizzt and selling novels. (snip)

Yeah, see my previous comment.

If it wasn't for R A Salvatore and his "novels" I suspect it would have been a rewind to 1375DR.

 

[Scorpio616]

It sounds like they're trying to pull off one of those "It was all just a weird dream" moves with 4e.

Yeah, a big middle finger to the 4E Realms fans. 'Thanks for the money, we're going back to the folks who never stopped pissing on 4E.'

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Ed Greenwood hated the 4e FR and is enthusiastically on board with the Sundering, whatever that implies.

He’s actually not on record saying he “hated” the 4E Realms.

We know he was seriously putout when the changes were introduced to him, but he stuck with the setting by, amongst other things, writing the Waterdeep bible (used by the authors of the Ed Greenwood Presents: Waterdeep novels), doing work on Returned Abeir (i.e. Laerakond) and penning a long string of Eye on the Realms articles for Dungeon and later Dragon magazine (some 50 articles and counting).

FWIW, in the long history of the published Realms, TSR and WotC have both done things Greenwood has said he wouldn’t have done, were he still in charge.

I thought I heard the 5e Realms were going to support both the non-4e version and the 4e version so I assumed the Sundering would create two parallel Realms, one in which the SP happened and another where it didn't.

There is only one continuous timeline.

The Sundering is being introduced in a series of novels, the third of which is by Erin M. Evans (called “The Adversary”) and is available now, as I understand.

When those novels are all done, the setting will have advanced about ten years, to 1489 DR.

If it wasn't for R A Salvatore and his "novels" I suspect it would have been a rewind to 1375DR.

Not very likely.

WotC are the ones that approached Salvatore, Greenwood, et al., and asked them in so many words, “How do we fix the Realms?” Note these authors (not just Savlatore) have ongoing stories in the Realms and one of the Realms’ major themes is that it changes. It’s not a static place.

Stories are told in a linear fashion and there’s no evidence anyone wanted to jump back in time. The fix for the Realms involves moving the timeline forward.

*******

Other info:

The Sundering is supposed to be the very last Realms Shaking Event: something meant to put the world back in order.

The recent adventures all have rules downloads available that let DMs run their games using 3E, 4E and Next.

The intent of the Sundering is to get the old school Realms feel back. Greenwood stated in a recent podcast that changing the Realms should be done in a way that keeps it familiar to longtime fans (and so not in an abrupt manner, as was done with the Spellplague).

I’m pretty sure Akanul and Tymanther are going to be 86’d back to Abeir (which is unfortunate) and Anauroch will slowly return to swallow the Land Under Shadow (Netheril).

 

[Jester David]

Yeah, a big middle finger to the 4E Realms fans. 'Thanks for the money, we're going back to the folks who never stopped pissing on 4E.'

Again, while the Spellplague and changes were done because of 4e there is no relation between the problems and dislike of 4e and the problems and dislike of the post-SP Realms. It's very possible to love 4e, to want to have its babies, and still dislike the changes to the Realms.

Sembia being run by shades who have taken over Anauroch has nothing to do with AEDU and symmetrical class design.
The Red Wizards no longer being the Red Wizards of Thay while that nation became a necrocracy has nothing to do with martial spells.
The Harpers disbanding after a thousand years has nothing to do with warlord healing.
The destruction of Mulhorand, Unther, Chessenta and Luiren has nothing to do with healing surges.

As a comparison, I love the Dragonlance SAGA game. Very fun. Interesting use of cards instead of dice. Nice focus on narrative. But I hated what they did to Ansalon.

There might be a correlation in attitude between 4e and the Realms changes. Because it was so often the same team, there was a shared attitude of "we can do what we want, so we will change whatever we want." This attitude that the fans will like it regardless because it's D&D/the Realms, and everyone will just learn to accept it over time.
But beyond forcing the 4e races into the Realms, breaking the weave to justify the change to how magic works, and making the entire setting adopt the Points of Light philosophy there's little connecting the problems with the post-SP Realms with 4e the game and edition.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

(...) and making the entire setting adopt the Points of Light philosophy

The 4E/post-Spellplague Realms isn't technically a PoL setting.

In the wake of the rumbling decade that saw the Spellplague ravage the Realms, PoL certainly applied, but then 90 years passed and things settled down to normal; e.g. open, vigorous trade on land and sea.

WotC's early, mixed messaging didn't help with this, of course.

 

[Jester David]

The 4E/post-Spellplague Realms isn't technically a PoL setting.

In the wake of the rumbling decade that saw the Spellplague ravage the Realms, PoL certainly applied, but then 90 years passed and things settled down to normal; e.g. open, vigorous trade on land and sea.

WotC's early, mixed messaging didn't help with this, of course.

Check out the first real page of the "Adventuring" chapter of the FRCS. IIRC it literally says "points of light".

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Check out the first real page of the "Adventuring" chapter of the FRC[G]*. IIRC it literally says "points of light".

I know. And it's wrong.

I'm convinced the post-Spellplague Realms isn't a PoL setting. It's certainly big enough to incorporate PoL-type play, but the paragraph summary in the FRCG just above where the phrase "points of light" is used isn't a proper description of the Realms in its entirety.

It's contradicted by later articles and novels; as well by the opening paragraph of the Adventuring chapter.

Rich Baker summarized why the post-Spellplague Realms isn't a PoL setting, but I'm afraid I don't have a link to his post (from the WotC forums).

Apologies to the OP for the thread drift.

*My edit.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

(snip) WotC are the ones that approached Salvatore, Greenwood, et al., and asked them in so many words, “How do we fix the Realms?” Note these authors (not just Savlatore) have ongoing stories in the Realms and one of the Realms’ major themes is that it changes. It’s not a static place.

Stories are told in a linear fashion and there’s no evidence anyone wanted to jump back in time. The fix for the Realms involves moving the timeline forward. (snip)

My point is that the most logical way to appease the Realms fans is to roll back to 1375 DR. You're only "invalidating" a couple of game products.

The real impetus to continue advancing the timeline past 1485 DR or so was the fact that the novels provide more profit than the TTRPG.