Majoru Oakheart
Adventurer
Yes, I'm advocating no rules at all for NPCs that aren't intended for combat. They don't need rules and rules only get in the way because they provide restrictions.A non-rules system.... So basically you are advocating no rules? Ok.... The thing about a 'no rules system' is its really easy to provide you one, but maybe you shouldn't get an opinion as to what the rules are since you aren't going to use them anyway.
That's pretty much my reply to the rest of your post. Your being picky about rules details that I don't care about and didn't have to consider because I wasn't following any formulas. I just considered what type of character I wanted and made that.
Apparently you are using low numbers. Every character in my games both 3.5e, 4e, and D&D Next have at least one 18 and one 16. At that's at first level. With stat bonuses and level bumps, the numbers mean that after level 8 if there is anyone left without a 20 in a stat they are amazingly poor.Even a 70 year old feeble grandmother has a dexterity probably higher than any of my current players and is certainly on par with many a 40 year old nerd in overall health?
That's the point, it doesn't follow any rules because no rules are needed. In this circumstance, I'd only include stats in the off chance that she had to roll a skill check that wasn't sewing at some point in the game or if I needed to figure out how much she could carry. Ideally, I wouldn't write the stats down at all.In D&D sewing is a craft skill and as such has nothing to do with Dexterity. I suppose this is another rule you aren't following. But I really have to ask here, why she needs stats at all? What purpose are they really serving you, since they aren't markers for anything in particular? She has a dexterity score that normally increases initiative and AC, but apparently in your case it isn't. Meanwhile what it doesn't do is make her a better sewer. So what in the world is it for? Is it showing she can dodge fireballs? Which rules are you going to follow and if you aren't following the rules to get the outcome you want, why should the players trust you?
My point is that by having rules on how to calculate how many skill points she has, what her combat abilities are and so on based on a class which gives a package of benefits means I HAVE to write down all that stuff.
Sewing is only a craft skill in 3.5e D&D. Given this thread was labelled D&D Next and the proposed class was a D&D Next class, I was using D&D Next rules. There is no craft skill and skills in D&D Next are based on whatever stat the DM finds most appropriate for the skill check. In this case, I figured that working with your hands would be a Dex check. That makes much more sense than an Int check.
Though, I am trying to discuss generically, across all editions rather than use any one edition. I don't think it's a good idea to include in ANY edition of D&D.
Ok, a Knitting Needle. She also knits.1d4 damage with a sewing needle? A sewing needle??? That's a really big needle. You know, there is something to be said for verisimilitude at times. We're dealing with something about 2 size classes smaller than an ordinary dagger, dealing comparatively enormous damage (1 stab potentially kills your character).
The elite array in 3.5e is:That's what, 34 point buy? Your young seamstress has better attributes than any of my PC's. Indeed, that's a better stat array than any NPC I've introduced into the game in 3 years of regular play. My BBEG isn't so completely well-rounded. Why the heck isn't she saving the world instead of the PC's? Stat arrays like that just scream DM's pet.
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
My proposed stats were:
16, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10
They are a couple of points above the elite array, which the rules suggest you use for any exceptional NPC. She's pretty exceptional being an adventurer in addition to a seamstress and I didn't have the elite array handy to look up and just use that so I made up numbers and ended up getting pretty close.
When I used to run 3.5e, my general rule was if they had a name they got the elite array. Troll #2 used the standard array: 11,11,11,10,10,10 and the Troll leader had the elite array. Or anyone who has class levels gets the elite array automatically.
Your proposed stats are so far below the average person that if you used even the standard array, in order to lower 3 stats to 3, you'd have to raise all 3 of her other stats to 18 to make up for it.
Generally, I assume the minimum stat for the humanoid races allowed as PC races is 6. Those are the weakest and most frail example of their species. Basically, I assume that since point buy starts at 8 and you can apply a -2 penalty that 6 is the lowest stat anyone will have. In 2e I used to use 4d6, take the best 3, reroll ones which had a minimum of 6 for stats. I MIGHT use a 4 or a 5 for what I'd consider to be an exceptionally poor person at that stat.
Even if we use the age modifiers and standard array, that means the old version would have started at 10 con and had -2 applied to it due to her age. She'd have 8, not 3. Same with her Strength and Con. Even if we somehow lowered all of them to 8 to start with, the lowest she'd have is 6.
Though, now we've already spent 2 days analyzing the proper use of the NPC rules about 2 sets of NPCs. Which is a far cry from "It's really simple".
The same way people do in the real world. I don't know if my boss secretly has a degree in nuclear physics or if he is the best swordsman in the world by looking at him. Though I suspect not because he works in the IT industry as a manager.You've got no consistency at all and you seem to take pride in that. How in the world do you expect your PC's to get proactive and make plans if it isn't possible to predict how your world is going to behave?
I don't know precisely how much he knows about carpentry based on his job or experience either. There are no rules that govern what his hitpoints will be. In fact, he's likely just as easy to kill with a knife as everyone else I know.
I guess at his skills and abilities just like I do each and every other person I meet and they vary wildly.
Huh? I didn't see any explanation. You just said "14 is too high!" and "I think it should be 3!" Your stats are just as arbitrary as mine. Following the rules would require using the standard array or the elite array and then lowering one stat to raise another.Which is about how long it took me to jot down my two examples. So yes, that was trivial too. As for why I don't like to arbitrarily assign stats, I've already answered that several times. I feel your examples just reinforce my points.
I've never seen an NPC in any officially published adventure with less than a 5 in a stat, even the most frail person in the world. I take my cue from the "norm".Most 70 year old women aren't exactly spry, and you are the one that explicitly described her as 'frail'.
No she isn't. According to the rules, Craft is an Intelligence based skill and so provided she has skill ranks in Craft (Sewing) and continues to have a reasonably sharp mind in her frail body, there is no reason why she can't be a fantastic sewer. As a 4th level human, she has access to 3 feats to boost her skills, 7 skill ranks, and probably a point or two of bonus from her intelligence. Depending on which sourcebooks you use she could easily get a +14 bonus to her Craft (Sewing) skill checks, and probably more. In mine she'd take Skill Focus, Skill Aptitude, and Craftsman for total bonus from feats of +7, granting her like a +16 bonus. Throw in some masterwork tools, and that hits +18. I've spent virtually all her resources on sewing. She's a narrowly focused character who excels the PC's in sewing, but in virtually nothing else. She's balanced within her universe, and there is no power creep, no stat inflation, no reason for the PC's to be jealous of the NPC's because the DM's characters can break the rules or receive benefits and coolness they never possibly could attain. No one can accuse me on the basis of the stats of impartiality, of favoring my plots and my characters over the PCs.
A ten is average only for a young adult, or at least the population as a whole. A 70 year old on average does not have a 10 strength and a 10 dexterity. A 70 year old woman who is as strong or nearly as strong as an average young adult male is not average.
She's frail in that she can easily break her ankle if she fell and she dies pretty easy when stabbed with a sword. She's still pretty strong for an old woman, around 8. Not as strong as an average 16 year old boy with no muscles who has a 10 and not nearly as strong as the blacksmith who has a 16.Which implies she's not really 'frail'.
No I didn't.
Then why does the seamstress need stats at all? I'm never going to bother with stats unless I think they are relevant. But again, I don't know what NPC's are 'here' for. The character could end up anything from a paramour to a foil, or an ally, or a ward to be rescued, or a friend whose murder I use to hook the PC's into plot thread. I might not have particular plans when the character is first introduced. It could be the character was originally just furnishing and color, and became important because the PC's focused on her and enjoyed the resulting spontaneous role play.
Wait, those are the rules. Why aren't you following them? If the point is that we need to have rules on how to many up an NPC, then breaking them would be bad. It would also likely be unbalanced and favoring NPCs over PCs who have to roll for their hitpoints.No I didn't.
But I only spent 5 seconds on mine and it is a complete NPC with all the details I'll ever need. That means it'll take longer to complete yours.No, but it's pretty easy to figure out if I wanted to figure it out. I didn't jot down everything about her because it was an example I spent 5 seconds on.
Wait. Why do I have to memorize the rules for everything, even the AC given out by armor in order to run the game? When I run D&D Next or 4e, I just pull out a monster and run it exactly as written. It doesn't require me to know what the AC of Masterwork Padded is. If I want to make up another monster, I can just set an AC that's appropriate without knowing how much AC Masterwork Padded is either.Then you should be learning the rules then.
As a side note, I DO know what the AC of Masterwork Padded is. But I'm trying to play the role of someone new to the game and trying to figure out how these rules for making up NPCs are making the game better for me.
Maybe not, but it's an extra step. Each extra step takes time. Time spent doing math and calculating these things takes time away from actually playing the game. Each step takes brain power better spent on something else. It's kind of my point that we've created two almost identical sets of stats for NPCs. One of them required knowledge of about 20-30 pages worth of NPC creation rules, class features, feats, hitpoint generation rules, skill rules and the expertise in order to use them all to generate precisely what you wanted the final numbers to come out as. The other one requires none of that knowledge and just allows you to set the final numbers to what you wanted them to come out as in advance.That's not hard.
Yeah, I'm talking generically. Let's assume that we're trying to find the best rules for the game in general. Which means I'm a new player. I thought "Hey, this DMing thing is awesome. I'll read the sections on how to DM, I've got a monster manual which has the rules for monsters in it. Awesome, now I'll just come up with an adventure for the players to run through. I need the stats for a seamstress that the players will meet."Maybe you do. I don't.
They likely would have to look up the rules for Dodge, having never seen the feat before. In fact, they'd likely have to read the entire feat section to figure out what feats to take.