D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

...and that proves the point. There is no such thing as a non-combat adventurer. Bookish expert of rare knowledge is Indiana Jones they dont stay just bookish experts of rare knowledge if they do any kind of adventuring. Once you get character growth, you get combat competence.

C3-P0 is comic relief. R2-D2 is a henchman in the Star Wars movies and IS a combat character when he gets the spotlight in supplementary fiction.

3rd edition Wizard can be a non-combat character. If you don't believe me then I can build you one.

 

[Marshall]

I am a big supporter of 4e (well d&d any edition really) even being lumped in with the 4vengers back when the wotc board was doing that... and I agree with 3/4 of what he is saying here...

He's not even correct on his primary assertion. Yes, combat got a lot of attention, but exactly none of the other systems feel tacked on. In fact, they all work so well together that they all can function during every pillar.

you get 5 attack powers at level 1 and 1 more at 3rd and one more at 5th... so my wizard at level 5 has a handful of cantrips, 2 at will attacks 2 encounter attacks 2 daily attacks... and a utility from level 2 that could be atwill encounter or daily...
I couldn't make a wizard (and I think I do pretty good with this) and have half my powers not cause damage on a bet...

You could without thinking twice about it. You could also end up with the same wizard making higher Diplomacy/Bluff/Stealth/Intimidate checks than any other PC in the party. He would also have acess to dozens of out of combat rituals, etc, etc, etc.... The 4e Wizard infinitely more diverse than any previous editions Wizard. Without being so OTT powerful that no other class matters.

100% true... and for all the flack for skill challenges get... hey they tried... they really tried

Yep, for the first time there were actual rules/guidelines for what goes on outside combat.

 

[Remathilis]

...and that proves the point. There is no such thing as a non-combat adventurer.

You really need to watch some Doctor Who...

 

[Sage Genesis]

3rd edition Wizard can be a non-combat character. If you don't believe me then I can build you one.

If you view an increase in hit points, BAB, and saves to be "non-combat" elements (which is by no means a given) then yes, you can go out of your way to make a non-combat Wizard. And by the same warped perspective somebody could make a non-combat Fighter, by dumping physical stats and wasting all feats on skill focus and exotic weapon proficiencies. Maybe some sort of foreign antique collector with a penchant for impractical weaponry who did a bit of practice with them, but nevertheless is less mighty than a farmhand with a pitchfork. After all, the guy just gets more hit points, BAB, and saves. And apparently those are non-combat elements, so this is a non-combat Fighter.

Meanwhile, outside of the realm of absurd hypothetical corner cases used by armchair edition warriors, D&D Wizards are very much a combat class. (Because the combat-worthiness of a class is not dictated by the combat-worthiness of one individual character expressly built to suck at combat.)

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

If you view an increase in hit points, BAB, and saves to be "non-combat" elements (which is by no means a given) then yes, you can go out of your way to make a non-combat Wizard. And by the same warped perspective somebody could make a non-combat Fighter, by dumping physical stats and wasting all feats on skill focus and exotic weapon proficiencies. Maybe some sort of foreign antique collector with a penchant for impractical weaponry who did a bit of practice with them, but nevertheless is less mighty than a farmhand with a pitchfork. After all, the guy just gets more hit points, BAB, and saves. And apparently those are non-combat elements, so this is a non-combat Fighter.

Meanwhile, outside of the realm of absurd hypothetical corner cases used by armchair edition warriors, D&D Wizards are very much a combat class. (Because the combat-worthiness of a class is not dictated by the combat-worthiness of one individual character expressly built to suck at combat.)

I'm not sure if you've had much experience in playing D&D if this is your conclusion.

BAB is universal, therefore I can ignore it. HP is also universal but something I can't avoid because if it hit's -10 I'm dead, same with AC. I also don't have to participate in combat. I can simply buff my companions before battle and turn Invisible while the battle goes on, or fly etc... I have built Wizards that had no attack spells and carried no weapons what so ever.

Not sure where you get armchair from but I've been playing for over 27 years now and I do know what I am talking about. I have played the entire life of 3rd edition and continue to play Pathfinder to this day. The only armchair I see here is the armchair that gets splattered around.

Not every player cares for combat.

 

[ImperatorK]

Funny how you define heroism with mechanics.

Last time I played D&D it had mechanics. Quite a lot of them, actually.
And how else should I define it? As I said earlier (or was it in another thread?), I can pretend I'm a hero, but I'd rather be really one.

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

Last time I played D&D it had mechanics. Quite a lot of them, actually.

Wut?

 

[ImperatorK]

Something's not clear to you in what I said? Or do you simply not have anything constructive to say?

 

[Marshall]

3rd edition Wizard can be a non-combat character. If you don't believe me then I can build you one.

No. You cant.

At second level you will have +1 BAB and 2HD. Congratulations, you're now a combat character. Every level after that, you will be a BETTER combat character. You're empirically wrong with this assertion. Of course, you'll pull out the WIZ/X/x/x/x that doesnt get a BAB without fractional accounting, but even then his HD and saves are going up and he's becoming a better combatant every level...

Now, you can choose to take spells and feats and yada that dont affect combat(very hard to find spells that have NO combat application, but doable) and stand there and drool instead of taking a turn in combat, but even acting as support only in combat is being a combat character. Since you've read all the 4e books, I'm gonna assume you know what the Leader role generally does?

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

No. You cant.

At second level you will have +1 BAB and 2HD. Congratulations, you're now a combat character. Every level after that, you will be a BETTER combat character. You're empirically wrong with this assertion. Of course, you'll pull out the WIZ/X/x/x/x that doesnt get a BAB without fractional accounting, but even then his HD and saves are going up and he's becoming a better combatant every level...

Now, you can choose to take spells and feats and yada that dont affect combat(very hard to find spells that have NO combat application, but doable) and stand there and drool instead of taking a turn in combat, but even acting as support only in combat is being a combat character. Since you've read all the 4e books, I'm gonna assume you know what the Leader role generally does?

LOL!

Seriously?