Help Me Find a System

[redboxrazor]

I've been trying multiple systems on-and-off for the last year or so. I've happily run a lot of Pathfinder, AD&D 1E, GURPS, and now some Numenera. Each has its strengths and weaknesses, and AD&D will always be my first love, but I'm still looking for something... different.

I'm looking for a game that has deep character customization, but without the "superhero" feel that I get from Pathfinder. I want my players to have lots of options, but I'm looking for that "batman" feel instead of the "superman" feel at high levels.

I'd like this game to support a medieval fantasy setting. It should feel gritty, and I prefer low magic, but I'll work with what I can get.

Hmm, I guess I like the gritty feel of AD&D, but I don't like the loads of "breakable" combinations that were especially prevalent in later editions (3rd/PF). I still want that depth of customization, though. E6 doesn't take it far enough for me.

Our group loves combat, but I'd also love some emphasis on out-of-combat interactions. Bonus points if it has some interesting ways to handle character death.

Any suggestions? Tell me what you love about the game you're recommending, and I'll give it a go if it sounds close to what I'm looking for. Also, has anyone had experience with 13th Age, RuneQuest, and the like?

TL;DR: Looking for a gritty system with deep-but-not-overly-powerful character customization for Swords and Sorcery type games.

 

[edemaitre]

Have you considered retro-clones? While they resemble older editions of D&D, they're often less complex or high-powered, making them suitable for low fantasy.

I like the Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game, a free, streamlined D20 retro-clone that's easily house-ruled, but OSRIC is close to AD&D. There are other flavorful old-school Renaissance (OSR) rules sets, such as Dungeon Crawl Classics and Adventurer, Conqueror, King.

For support of role-playing beyond combat, I also like the FATE 3e Legends of Anglerre. FATE's aspects give a mechanical bonus for playing to one's character concept. I've heard good things about RuneQuest 6th Ed., although it's on the crunchier side.

13th Age and Numenera are both closer to D&D3.5 and D&D4e, but with some clever ideas and role-playing encouragement. Good luck finding the system that best suits your needs!

 

[Hyper-Man]

You should also take a look at Fantasy Hero (the genre book) and the HERO System 6th edition (the core rules).

It is arguably the king of customizable systems. And before anyone points out that HERO came from a superhero game (Champions) there are probably as many if not more fans of HERO that use it for fantasy as for any other setting including supers.

 

[GMMichael]

O.L.D. is looking pretty good...

By the way, what does O.L.D. stand for? Not seeing it in the first few playtest pages...

 

[innerdude]

I've been trying multiple systems on-and-off for the last year or so. I've happily run a lot of Pathfinder, AD&D 1E, GURPS, and now some Numenera. Each has its strengths and weaknesses, and AD&D will always be my first love, but I'm still looking for something... different.

I'm looking for a game that has deep character customization, but without the "superhero" feel that I get from Pathfinder. I want my players to have lots of options, but I'm looking for that "batman" feel instead of the "superman" feel at high levels.

I'd like this game to support a medieval fantasy setting. It should feel gritty, and I prefer low magic, but I'll work with what I can get.

Hmm, I guess I like the gritty feel of AD&D, but I don't like the loads of "breakable" combinations that were especially prevalent in later editions (3rd/PF). I still want that depth of customization, though. E6 doesn't take it far enough for me.

Our group loves combat, but I'd also love some emphasis on out-of-combat interactions. Bonus points if it has some interesting ways to handle character death.

Any suggestions? Tell me what you love about the game you're recommending, and I'll give it a go if it sounds close to what I'm looking for. Also, has anyone had experience with 13th Age, RuneQuest, and the like?

TL;DR: Looking for a gritty system with deep-but-not-overly-powerful character customization for Swords and Sorcery type games.

Based on your criteria / description, are you sure you haven't found the right fit already in GURPS? Having played it some over the last two years, it's not really my bag of tea, but it seems to fit a) gritty, b) depth of customization, c) lots of combat options, especially in GURPS 4e with the fatigue mechanic.

Keep the initial character point-buy low (approx. 125-150 points), and it sounds like a good fit.

I'd definitely look at Runequest / Legend / BRP, though. Similar in some ways to GURPS, but a little more streamlined, and with more interesting magic, with easy-to-tack-on additional magic variants.

If you want more emphasis on character, definitely check out Burning Wheel too.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

+1 for GURPS, perhaps with the GURPS Dungeon Fanatsy line thrown in. You just have to make sure that the starting characters are below the ususal point level, avoid some crass optimization, and be very reluctant with awarding CPs over the long run.

Keep the initial character point-buy low (approx. 125-150 points), and it sounds like a good fit.

This has me scratching my head. I played GURPS in its 3e times, where the Hero Material level was 100 CP (+40 CP disadvantages). Has this changed in 4e to a higher budget with accordingly higher costs?

 

[Jhaelen]

Any suggestions? Tell me what you love about the game you're recommending, and I'll give it a go if it sounds close to what I'm looking for. Also, has anyone had experience with 13th Age, RuneQuest, and the like?

Runequest is still one of my favorite systems. And if you aren't using Glorantha as a setting, it will also qualify as a low-magic setting. The default setting is basically medieval Europe.

 

[redboxrazor]

I love GURPS, but my players have expressed that it just doesn't 'feel' right. I don't know how to translate that into anything useful, haha. Hence why we are trying a few more systems out. Maybe it's the spells...

I think 4e GURPS recommends 100 +/- 40 points for new characters as a base, but that's easy enough to lower for a grittier game. Hmm, maybe I just need to take some time to really modify the material, and we could use GURPS after all. Has anyone had a good experience with any of the Fantasy or Magic supplements for GURPS 4E?

Also, where can I find more information on O.L.D.? I remember seeing something about it on the front page awhile back, but haven't really followed it yet.

Aside from GURPS, I feel like I'm looking for something akin to Castles and Crusades, but with a little more customization (via feats, or something of the sort). Again, 3E/PF take the power level farther than I like, so maybe in the end I'll need to hack something together.

For anyone who has played RuneQuest, what would you say the strengths of that system are?

 

[innerdude]

This has me scratching my head. I played GURPS in its 3e times, where the Hero Material level was 100 CP (+40 CP disadvantages). Has this changed in 4e to a higher budget with accordingly higher costs?

Yeah, the 4e point scale is different. Higher costs to raise attributes, overall higher costs for skills. I think they also readjusted the costs of the ads / disads to match. They also changed the hit location stuff, so that it takes more point investment.

A 130-140 point character in GURPS 4e (+disads) is about the same as a 100-110 point character in 3e.

 

[innerdude]

I love GURPS, but my players have expressed that it just doesn't 'feel' right. I don't know how to translate that into anything useful, haha. Hence why we are trying a few more systems out. Maybe it's the spells...

..snip..

Aside from GURPS, I feel like I'm looking for something akin to Castles and Crusades, but with a little more customization (via feats, or something of the sort). Again, 3E/PF take the power level farther than I like, so maybe in the end I'll need to hack something together.

Totally understand the "GURPS just doesn't feel quite right" comment. I've played it quite a bit, though I've never really dug in and mastered the rules, but there is just something about the way the mechanical resolution works that doesn't sit right with me. Which is odd, because on the whole I'm a big fan of "bell curve" probability distributions in RPGs (my ultimate dream system would pair Savage Worlds with some kind of bell-curve dice mechanic).

That said, have you looked at True20 by Green Ronin? Have only read through it, not played it, but it seems like it might be the kind of 3.x chassis you're looking for. Easier than baseline 3.x, but still supports a lot of the character customization.

I always recommend people to check out Savage Worlds. It's not nearly as gritty as GURPS or Runequest, but with a few tweaks it can certainly be deadly. It's definitely more gritty than baseline D&D 3. For example, my group's characters are currently in the "Heroic" tier, roughly equivalent of D&D level 8 or 9, and they're STILL afraid of combat--because enemies can still pose a threat.

It doesn't have as "deep" character customization as GURPS, but it has very "broad" customization. It's fantastic for emulating characters that are excellent at one thing, good to very good at 3 other things, and okay at another 3 or 4 more. It's terrible at emulating characters that are "otherwordly" at one thing, and only that one thing, and mediocre-to-poor at everything else. Pick up the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion, along with the Hellfrost, Shaintar, or Sundered Skies campaign setting and have at it.