D&D 5E Non choices: must have and wants why someone that hates something must take it

[Wulfgar76]

I despise what WotC did and how they in the past have run their business. They don't appear to be changing
I never swore not to ever buy their products. I said I won't buy 5E based on their current behavior and their past behavior. I have to see a change or they don't get my money.
As I've repeated over and over I'm proclaiming loudly what I want out of the game so that later when its not in the game no one can say "why didn't you speak up?" or "Well those people should have spoke up, we had a public play test after all." and things like that. I want it to be abundantly clear that I tried everything in my power to get the game I like.

Given that, why should WotC even care what you think, much less listen to what you want out of their new game?

Sounds like even if they made the game exactly what you wanted, you would still not buy it because of how cruel and awful they were to you in the past.

 

[Mistwell]

That's not my problem.

It is, because it goes to the heart of my question: why are you continuing to reply to every single 5e thread if you know they will not listen to a word you have to say, with good reason? Your stated intend was to persuade them to change, but you've nullified that intent by simultaneously telling them you still wouldn't buy it from them anyway. So, that begs the question, why the heck are you still doing talking about it?

And actually they do listen to people that don't buy their products.

I didn't say "don't" buy their products. I said WON'T buy their products. You've made it clear you will not buy their products from them, and will only buy them used, even if you like the changes they make to it. So you're not the "don't right now buy them" category, you're the "will never buy them" category, which is rather different.

I know you want to change the subject, but this is a pretty important aspect of the subject. If you know they won't listen to you because you will never be a customer, and if your stated intent in posting is just so they will listen to you, then we've closed that loop now. There must be some other reason you're still responding to every 5e thread on the board, since your prior reasoning has already resolved by your own actions (you've made it clear you won't buy it, so they won't listen to you).

I can guess at the reason, but that would be rude. So, I am asking you to tell us the reason. What is it? Just tell us, there is no reason to quibble about this point any more, people should hear it from you.

 

[Lokiare]

No you specifically compared it to 4E when saying you couldn't easily play a light weapon light armor fighter.



(bolded emphase mine)

Again the fighter doesn't need STR/CON, it can work easily DEX/CON and only 1 feature of 1 build will not be optimal, which is not many builds as you claim.

Yes, in 4E light weapons are considered one handed and not heavy or finesse. You are talking about light thrown. Nice red herring there. Made us waste 2-3 posts on it.

Instead of trying to trip me up on semantics, why not try to understand and/or refute my position with facts and numbers?

We all know what I am talking about when I say 'light weapon'.

Sure right now there is only one or two things that require strength, but what happens when you want a light armor heavy weapon fighter? Then you have to give up damage for AC by either maxing Str or Dex. The point is still made. You are giving up a concept in order to be effective or vice versa.

 

[Ichneumon]

As I've repeated over and over I'm proclaiming loudly what I want out of the game so that later when its not in the game no one can say "why didn't you speak up?" or "Well those people should have spoke up, we had a public play test after all." and things like that. I want it to be abundantly clear that I tried everything in my power to get the game I like.

Do you actually want them to listen to you? If so, how do you think you treat those guys in your posts? WotC employees sometimes browse these threads. When they come across your posts, do you think they're encouraged to keep paying attention to what you have to say?

 

[Lokiare]

Do you actually want them to listen to you? If so, how do you think you treat those guys in your posts? WotC employees sometimes browse these threads. When they come across your posts, do you think they're encouraged to keep paying attention to what you have to say?

What are you talking about?

I treat people on the forums the way they deserve to be treated. If they keep doing personal attacks, I call it out. If they want to try to play semantic arguments I call it out.

If they can't provide facts and numbers I call them out.

That's the only way we can have a discussion that comes to a consensus or at least is constructive. I'm not doing this because I'm hateful or spiteful or hate WotC. I'm doing this so we can continue to get D&D TTRPG products and all of us can get a game we can play.

People need to stop characterizing my arguments in the worst possible light or I might have to resort to smileys.

 

[Ichneumon]

What are you talking about?

I treat people on the forums the way they deserve to be treated. If they keep doing personal attacks, I call it out. If they want to try to play semantic arguments I call it out.

If they can't provide facts and numbers I call them out.

That's the only way we can have a discussion that comes to a consensus or at least is constructive. I'm not doing this because I'm hateful or spiteful or hate WotC. I'm doing this so we can continue to get D&D TTRPG products and all of us can get a game we can play.

People need to stop characterizing my arguments in the worst possible light or I might have to resort to smileys.

WotC employees, not forum members.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Yes, in 4E light weapons are considered one handed and not heavy or finesse. You are talking about light thrown. Nice red herring there. Made us waste 2-3 posts on it.

Instead of trying to trip me up on semantics, why not try to understand and/or refute my position with facts and numbers?

We all know what I am talking about when I say 'light weapon'.

Sure right now there is only one or two things that require strength, but what happens when you want a light armor heavy weapon fighter? Then you have to give up damage for AC by either maxing Str or Dex. The point is still made. You are giving up a concept in order to be effective or vice versa.

If you referred to Light Blade they doesn't exist in 5E so why would you compare to it then?

Again there is nothing requiring STR in the fighter no matter how many times you repeat it.

The thing is you can still be effective by going either STR or DEX, unless you purposefully choose a weapon not suggested by your fighting style & stat.

What happen if you want a light armor heavy weapon is a different question and this mean you will be gimped (AC) unless you go STR/DEX, but this is not the swashbuckler fighter you referred to that couldn't be done in 5E.

 

[Lokiare]

WotC employees, not forum members.

Oh well in that case. I apply the same logic:

If they deceive or fail to keep up with their promises (for whatever tragic reason), then I don't do business with them. If it were to happen once or twice and they apologize and move on that's one thing, but if it happens repetitively over the course of 2+ years, then no. I'm certainly not giving them money until they change their behavior. I don't support corporations or sub-divisions of corporations that are all about deceptive business practices. WotC has proven to me over and over that is what they are about.

 

[Lokiare]

If you referred to Light Blade they doesn't exist in 5E so why would you compare to it then?

Again there is nothing requiring STR in the fighter no matter how many times you repeat it.

The thing is you can still be effective by going either STR or DEX, unless you purposefully choose a weapon not suggested by your fighting style & stat.

What happen if you want a light armor heavy weapon is a different question and this mean you will be gimped (AC) unless you go STR/DEX, but this is not the swashbuckler fighter you referred to that couldn't be done in 5E.

Again, I don't do semantic arguments. So you can just stop trying with that. It is a logically inconsistent arguing technique that does not bring us closer to closure on the issues being discussed.

I referred to any character concept that you have to trade concept for mechanics. I just went into detail with the swashbuckler because that was the first thing to come to mind. Again rather than trying to stick to a specific example, why not refute the point by showing how you can make several effective character concepts in 5E that I mentioned in my list a few pages back? Or simply agree 5E is not as flexible as other editions and help me lobby for change so we can all get what we want?

 

[Rygar]

What are you talking about?

I treat people on the forums the way they deserve to be treated. If they keep doing personal attacks, I call it out. If they want to try to play semantic arguments I call it out.

If they can't provide facts and numbers I call them out.

That's the only way we can have a discussion that comes to a consensus or at least is constructive. I'm not doing this because I'm hateful or spiteful or hate WotC. I'm doing this so we can continue to get D&D TTRPG products and all of us can get a game we can play.

People need to stop characterizing my arguments in the worst possible light or I might have to resort to smileys.

What they're trying to convey to you is this:

It's ok to boycott a company provided you have some specific criteria you wish to see occur that can be expressed in definite terms. For example, I won't buy games from EA until: They drop Day 1 DLC and drop multiplayer in everything when it doesn't make sense.

You're not outlining specific criteria, you're offering a vague "I'm not paying them until something happens, and I haven't paid them because something didn't happen". That's problematic for WOTC, they can't please you because there's no thing they can do to that would make you interested in their products. From their point of view, you can't be reacquired because you have no specific complaint, and so time/money spent addressing things you bring up would be better used in addressing someone who does express a specific complaint.

I also think you've made a mistake in your assessment and position. You're correct that WOTC pays attention to people who aren't paying them, but only because they're paying someone who is visible to them. The people who left for Pathfinder may not be paying WOTC, but WOTC can "See" them because they know how well Pathfinder is doing.

They can't see you. If you're buying used books, the money you're spending is invisible to them. It doesn't appear in any revenue chain they can measure, unlike Pathfinder they can't estimate how many people are buying product through the channels you're using.

When WOTC holds meetings to discuss future endeavors, the data upon which they operate is their sales data and known or estimated sales of competitors. They don't refer to message board posts. So when WOTC is making a decision about the future of RPG's, unfortunately your voice is silent, you won't appear in any of their data. You didn't vote.

Now again, I'm *not* saying you have to buy their products, I'm just saying that when you state you're going to buy something used you really need to express a concrete event that would convince you to purchase at retail. This is how the PC market convinced Ubisoft to drop their DRM policies, they stopped buying Ubisoft product (> 90% drop in sales) and gave Ubisoft a concrete event that would change that (Get rid of mandatory DRM), and ultimately Ubisoft dropped it and people began buying their games again.

It's really a shame if you don't have a voice, you're an intelligent guy or gal who is very good with math. You have a lot to contribute. We're just saying that maybe it would be more effective if you expressed concrete events that would make you a retail customer again.