Pathfinder 1E Advice Needed: Best way to work with Power Gamers?

[koesherbacon]

I've got a question for all the other DMs out there. For the last few weeks, I've been DMing for a group who I can only describe as Power Gamers. They love to optimize their characters, and build them much more around mechanics rather than role playing potential.

Now I don't really mind that they've built their characters this way, but DMing for them can be a little difficult. In combat, they regularly utterly destroy my monsters and enemies. What's more, when I make different, more challenging encounters, there's two distinct aspects to them. In these encounters, some characters do relatively well, while others have an extremely difficult time. For the characters who have a difficult time, sometimes they can't even hit the enemies because their defenses are so high in order to make them challenging for the others.

Does anybody have any advice for me for DMing players like these? I really don't like making my encounters extremely difficult for some in order to make them challenging for others. At the same time, I don't like nerfing them either because then, while they're just right for some of the players, they're way too easy for others.

I'd appreciate anything you have to offer me. I want my games to be challenging for everybody, while at the same time achievable for everyone as well.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[Vegepygmy]

For the characters who have a difficult time, sometimes they can't even hit the enemies because their defenses are so high in order to make them challenging for the others.

Two quick ideas:

(1) Instead of increasing defenses to the point that half the PCs can't possibly hit them, use a greater number of enemy creatures with more reasonable defenses. Don't be afraid to pile on more and more foes, and whittle down your PCs' resources.

(2) Make the environment more challenging. Put the PCs into situations where their favorite tactics don't work as well, or they simply can't do certain things. Give their enemies the "home field advantage."

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Give them scenarios for which they aren't optimized: traps, tricks, roleplay encounters. Have them solve a murder without killing anyone, have to break into the royal treasury and steal the crown jewels without offing the guards, or infiltrate an upper class party posing as courtiers to gather incriminating information through observation and social interaction.

Let them have their fun, but provide some encounters for which stacked feats and magic items are not the solution.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I didn't see an edition.

The best way to handle this is to talk. If that means starting a new campaign with new PCs, you may have to take that step. You might also want to restrict sources or allow material in on a case-by-case basis.

Second is to monitor PC abilities and builds. In some editions, mainly 3rd (and Pathfinder) this is incredibly difficult. This is easier in 2e and earlier (fewer points of variants) and easier in 4e (transparent goalposts).

Third is to change your tactics. This is probably the hardest part of dealing with optimized PCs, in part because we don't know how they're optimized. Changing tactics includes preventing buffing or surprise. I've seen parties buff up, rush through the dungeon and try to kill as many monsters as possible before the buffs wear off. I've seen opponents take no preparations against surprise.

Don't be afraid to use "Schrodinger's Dungeon". What is behind that door? Your adventure might have a certain encounter planned, but if the PCs are doing well, throw in something harder. Until the PCs enter or look into that room somehow, they don't know what's there anyway. You can do something similar to add waves to add to an encounter that the PCs are steamrolling. Notably, waves coming from other parts of the dungeon often attack squishier PCs in the back (a strategic flank, rather than a rules flank).

Yet another tactic is 3D space. A wizard is far more dangerous when they use Spider Climb to cling to a wall 50 feet above the PCs (same with a drider sorcerer). The encounter becomes about getting to that wizard. A PC magus casting Spider Climb to get at that wizard is spending at least one round casting that spell, rather than delivering a massive Shocking Grasp. Said wizard should cast Protection from Arrows as quickly as possible. (By casting Alarm ahead of time, the wizard probably won't be surprised either.) And of course, the wizard isn't alone... Have the wizard cast whatever spells your PCs are weak against. If you have a powerful barbarian that dumped Wisdom, take a look at Confusion, Hold Monster and Dominate Person.

Another tactic is the "random" encounter. Actual random encounters are frowned upon, but pacing encounters are not. PCs resting too early? Throw ninjas at them. Throw invisible stalkers.

Fourth is to change your opponents. Again, in 3e, this is the hardest to do. At a certain point, time spent building classed NPCs that can challenge your PCs will take too much time. I wanted to recommend slapping on Pathfinder's advanced template, but that's just changing numbers, and often optimized PCs aren't optimizing numbers.

Instead, add more monsters and sometimes throw templates on them. In Kingmaker, our DM noted our weakness against AoE spells, and threw several lycanthropic/half-dragon/whatevers at us. Lots of high-damage breath weapons! We couldn't heal all that damage, and if it wasn't for my druid's ability to summon air elementals with Augment Summoning we probably would have died during round 2.

Also throw enemy "parties". This is kind of harder to do prior to 4e, but it's doable. If you have an encounter with several ogres, who can throw rocks but with little accuracy, replace one with (or add) an ogre specialized at throwing rocks. Do the same with a cleric or something along those lines. A caster can, of course, cast spells such as Spike Stones with the appropriate domains (and frankly, any domain giving that spell is pretty flavor-relevant for an ogre).

 

[steeldragons]

The best way to work with Powergamers...as everyone knows...is roasting.

Nice panko-parmesan crust with maybe an autumnal vegetable medley.

Though some prefer a slow braise...lil' red wine reduction. Goooooood stuff, that.

[Oh c'mon! You know someone was going to say something along these lines sooner or later! ]

All the suggestions thus far have been good ones. But it seems you've answered your own query...

They love to optimize their characters, and build them much more around mechanics rather than role playing potential.

[emphasis mine]
The obvious answer is, these are not people with whom you can roleplay. So why expect or try to?

If this is what they want to do...this is 'fun" for them...then just take the roleplay out. Have them spend their evenings just making up min/maxed/optimized/munchin/superpowers-PCs and then pit them against each other, tournament style.

Not fun for you, if you you want to be playing/DMing a roleplaying game. But, there it is.

(Psi)SeveredHead has the right of it. Talk to them. Attempted civil communication and diplomacy is always the best route to go.

This, naturally, will be fruitless since they are, as you've established, Powergamers. They will not be interested in trying to roleplay. It is unlikely they will be interested in altering their play-parameters in any fashion...which means changing your game to try to challenge them in different ways will not suit them either.

You can use the other suggestions...have them hand over their character sheets, see what they can/can't do, and throw things at them they are not prepared for, make more non-combat oriented adventures or simply overrun them with hordes of creatures. The players will, of course, call shenanigans, think you're being a "killer DM" and/or otherwise a "bad DM/game/doing it wrong" cuz you're not giving them things to fight that they are prepared for, the way they wanna and think they deserve [for some unfathomable reason], so they can "win."

If these people are actual friends of yours and you think compromise is possible, and will be satisfying to you as the DM, then great! Go for it. But I, personally, would be expecting to look for a different group of players before I would expect a suitable, mutually satisfying, compromise to come out of such a situation.

 

[biotech66]

My question to ask is WHY are they powergaming?

I have a friend who loves DnD, but is really more about making the numbers bigger. Doesn't care what you got, but he wants his numbers bigger then the last time. Fine. He wants some damage then go for it.

I have a different friend who is all about making his numbers bigger then YOUR numbers. He has to be the best at the table for everything! Thats not fun because its a pole waving contest. That right there is boring.

If there the first kind and you want more role playing, then ease more in. As my wife says, "You can always kill them later!" Put more encounters in where they have to not just kill the bad guys. Encounters that give information not just exp make that something they should think about real quick. Hit them with a trap that if they talked to someone would be easy, but if not they will almost die, something several CR's above them.

If you just want to challenge them, then hit this with higher CRs and give them lower CR exp. If they're the kind of people in it for the love of the game, they will have fun. If they're the pole measuring crowd then they are bad people!

 

[Celebrim]

I've got a question for all the other DMs out there. For the last few weeks, I've been DMing for a group who I can only describe as Power Gamers. They love to optimize their characters, and build them much more around mechanics rather than role playing potential.

Now I don't really mind that they've built their characters this way, but DMing for them can be a little difficult. In combat, they regularly utterly destroy my monsters and enemies. What's more, when I make different, more challenging encounters, there's two distinct aspects to them. In these encounters, some characters do relatively well, while others have an extremely difficult time. For the characters who have a difficult time, sometimes they can't even hit the enemies because their defenses are so high in order to make them challenging for the others.

Does anybody have any advice for me for DMing players like these? I really don't like making my encounters extremely difficult for some in order to make them challenging for others. At the same time, I don't like nerfing them either because then, while they're just right for some of the players, they're way too easy for others.

I'd appreciate anything you have to offer me. I want my games to be challenging for everybody, while at the same time achievable for everyone as well.

Thanks a bunch!

If everyone is a power gamer, it's a bit easier in some sense than if only one is. But you can handle it either way.

The first thing to realize is that when they wax the floor with your monsters, you are giving them what they want. They want lots of shining moments of awesome where they easily defeat foes. That's why they are power gamers. They want to win and win with style. When you up the difficulty on them, you're just encouraging them to double down on their existing style.

So, in general you don't up difficulty by upping the CR of enemies. You up difficulty by upping the number of enemies and the tactical advantages they possess due to terrain. In general, I usually like to have 2 enemies per PC when I'm trying to really challenge them. Two enemies per PC each having CR of level - 2 works pretty well for having a combat that doesn't have a high risk PC death or suckage for an individual PC (assuming compotent power gamers). If your PCs are really breaking the system hard, then evaluate whether:

a) Treating them as being effectively 1 to 2 levels higher is going to help.
b) You're failing as a DM by providing a system that is too easy to break. For example, allowing all 3.5 era source books would be failing as a DM. Allowing full customization of all magic items and/or allowing significantly more wealth than expected by the system is also you failing.

If the answer is 'a' you can up the challenge a bit further, but there is eventually as you are noticing a limit to that.

The other thing to do is make sure you are doing the most with the least amount of resources. That means making sure you are playing the monsters well, that you are using monsters that are worth their CR (no humanoid NPCs if you can help it!!!), that you are optimizing monsters so that you get the most bang from their CR (DMs have to power game too!), and that you are putting the monsters in the most advantageous situation possible. This also means you have to fight back at a strategic level as well. The enemies have to be proactive, they have prepare for the PCs, and pursue the PCs, and harass the PCs. You have to be absolutely fair doing this, but if you really have true power gamers they are going to love you for it (if you have pure ego gamers, this is a different problem, as you have a dysfunctional group that will need fixing).

So tactically, you have to present combat as problems. Have them face ranged attackers when closing the range is difficult (moats, slopes, difficult terrain, flying, walls, arrow loops, etc.) Have them face brawlers in very close quarters. Surround the PCs with low level snipers that are 100 yards in each direction and then make them hunt them all down. Have them face creatures with blindsight after activating a trap that extinguishes or suppresses light sources. Fill a room with water and have them face a swimming grapple creature. Have a fast strong grapple creature (big enough that it can take -20 on the grapple and still win it) snatch individual PCs and run away with them. Have the PC's fight while climbing, or balancing, or flying while doing it above some hazard. If the PCs are fond of flying, have them fight in a hurricane (or after activating a control winds trap). If the PC's are fond of buffing, use greater dispel magic traps or monsters that flee only to attack again 20 minutes later so that short term buffs are wasted. Dispel Magic can be your friend. Suddenly depriving the PCs of one key buff can totally change how difficult the fight is. Have them fight cold immune monsters in freezing cold environments, and heat immune monsters on top of flowing lava streams. Fluids are your friend. Weather is your friend. Complex 3D terrain is your friend. Make the party use resources until they are low on spells, then attack them while they are trying to rest.

Throw puzzles at the PCs. Throw combinations at the PCs - fight monsters in a trapped environment with hurricane force winds. Force them to deal with situations that they are poorly optimized for. Change the victory conditions for the PCs. Put innocents or fragile objects in the environment that need saving to limit area of effect attacks, or to force the PCs to waste actions on goals other than killing foes.

 

[athos]

Power gaming is very subjective. Are they just very experienced players that know how to make a character? If you have a group that is half experienced and half newbies, I can see your problem. Players with experience will always outshine those without it. Smarter players will always do better than dumber ones, it's a lot like life in that regard.

The simplest thing to do is to head off powerful characters at 1st level, limit what they get treasure wise and limit what classes, feats, etc. are allowed. Living Greyhawk did this and 3.5 became a much smoother experience.

Need more info to give better advise than this : know your game, know your players, limit what they start with and get, and finally just try and have fun (it's not you vs. them, it's the encounter vs. them). Good luck

 

[GSHamster]

Consider asking your players for advice.

They're power gamers, so they know the system and mechanics well. Just outline your problem, especially the fact that they either slice through everything or can't get past the defenses of the enemy at all.

Don't blame them or insult them. Just acknowledge that their system mastery is probably greater than yours and ask them for help.

See what they suggest. It might surprise you. Maybe they would like the combat mechanics kept the same but more non-combat challenges. Maybe they would like more environmental effects/challenges in combat. Maybe they would be okay with one or two tweaks to the combat mechanics. Maybe they would prefer to remake their characters with more restrictions on builds.

I would strongly recommend that you don't change the combat mechanics/expectations without their advice and consent. If the world stops working the way the players expect it to work, it will upset them. (And rightfully so. In a lot of ways players are like the blind men feeling the elephant, while the DM is the one who sees the whole.)

 

[ExploderWizard]

The best cure for the powergaming blues if it is affecting your enjoyment of things is to make each of them take turns running games. They need to get a taste of what it is like to handle a table full of powergamers from the other side of the screen. Experience will hopefully lead to sympathy and a better understanding by all.