D&D 5E Multiclassing discussion

[Obryn]

The mechanics could match to my vision if that vision were of a guy who under miraculous conversion suddenly has his entire ability score array re-aligned.

In either case, as the rules stand, it may require house ruling or an advance module to rebuild.

In my current vision I'm imagining a guy more slowly converting and becoming better over several levels until he matures into a competent cleric, either by incremental proficiency advancement or even perhaps slowly adjusting his ability scores to be more convenient.

Okay, so you'd prefer a series of rebuilds, if that's how you wanted to run it, using whatever tools were available. Start by changing stats just enough to qualify and cannibalize a Rogue level or two. Next level, rebuild again, somewhere between where you are and where you want to be, removing a few more rogue levels. Level after that, you're a full cleric with some crime knowledge.

You fall? Well, switch those cleric levels back over to Rogue.

Easy peasy, no complex rules required.

 

[Obryn]

And when they do not want to sacrifice verisimilitude on the altar of (combat) effectiveness?

How is it verisimilitudinous if you never change your abilities (stats, if you will) your whole life and never forget your skills, no matter how your focus changes?

This is another place where I think "verisimilitude" is code for "how it was done in 3e."

 

[Derren]

How is it verisimilitudinous if you never change your abilities (stats, if you will) your whole life and never forget your skills, no matter how your focus changes?

This is another place where I think "verisimilitude" is code for "how it was done in 3e."

How is it "verisimilitudinous" to instantly forget everything you knew and practiced the past years and instead become an expert on something you have never done before?

 

[bogmad]

Okay, so you'd prefer a series of rebuilds, if that's how you wanted to run it, using whatever tools were available. Start by changing stats just enough to qualify and cannibalize a Rogue level or two. Next level, rebuild again, somewhere between where you are and where you want to be, removing a few more rogue levels. Level after that, you're a full cleric with some crime knowledge.

You fall? Well, switch those cleric levels back over to Rogue.

Easy peasy, no complex rules required.

What do you mean by cannibalize a rogue level or two? I'm not disagreeing that DM adjudication and retraining might be necessary. Right now though the ability scores require a drastic amount of stat changing/retraining in some cases. Partly this is to keep you from being subpar with a low stat, and partly because getting all the proficiencies and class-abilities from a 1st class level are game breaking if your ability score array is not balanced to accomodate,

My solution is just to parse out what you might get from 1 level in another class instead of getting everything at once. Which is more complicated so I see why that's not the tack they took with the core rules, hence the need for an advanced module or house rules.

 

[TwoSix]

How is it verisimilitudinous if you never change your abilities (stats, if you will) your whole life and never forget your skills, no matter how your focus changes?

This is another place where I think "verisimilitude" is code for "how it was done in 3e."

I don't know if it's ironic or not, but I think the best way to model this kind of career change is 2E style dual-classing (minus the "you can't use your previous skills until you match your old level" nonsense).

 

[Obryn]

How is it "verisimilitudinous" to instantly forget everything you knew and practiced the past years and instead become an expert on something you have never done before?

I dunno. Isn't that how 3e did multiclassing?

Take 1 level of Fighter, know all weapons and armor. Take 1 level of Wizard after killing a few goblins, skip that apprenticeship part and start casting spells. Clear out a dungeon, take 6 ranks in blacksmithing, become an expert after never picking up a hammer.

Instant mastery is more or less the default, the way I see it.

D&D isn't - or shouldn't be - a point buy game. All this stuff about class and level is an abstraction; a kludge if you will. Let's not ascribe too much sanctity to it.

e: And as for forgetting it - Who says you forget? Maybe you choose not to use it, like how 1e dual-classing works. And eventually it fades from lack of practice. It works just fine. If you can deal with instant mastery, this hardly seems like a hurdle. Unless, of course, you're using a funny definition of "verisimilitude".

 

[Kobold Stew]

Thank you to those who answered --

This is really about the multi classing prereqs? Going back and reading the posts about assassins and the road to Damascus, it's hard to map what's being said onto just that.

Sure, the ability prereqs are a rough tool.* But in a game where ability boosts are relatively easy to come by, it doesn't seem as onerous as many are making out.


* I'd prefer to let dex or str 15 qualify you for Fighter, and Dex or Cha qualify you for rogue. That sort of change is trivial at the table however, and I certainly have no desire to force my preferences onto others.

 

[bogmad]

My solution is just to parse out what you might get from 1 level in another class instead of getting everything at once. Which is more complicated so I see why that's not the tack they took with the core rules, hence the need for an advanced module or house rules.

I mean, the rules right now are already working with this kind of idea in mind, what with the apprentice levels and all. Getting full range of proficiencies at first level can be a lot though, and illustrate the "suddenly you're an expert at what took a lv1 pc years" problem Obryn mentioned with 3e.

[edit]Still, all those "problems" of 3e are part of what 5e has chosen to inherit by stating that "there will be 3e style multiclassing." If it's going to be in there, there should be a way to implement it without gimping it, so those who want it will enjoy it.

 

[Mistwell]

How about meet the prerequisite for the new class, or take a feat to get the new class.

 

[Warskull]

I like your general concepts, but I think they might be overly complex. I'm not really interested in creating my own system, but a couple of observations.

1. I like the way your delayed proficiencies grant an entire category at a specific level. I don't want to see something like, "pick X weapon proficiences each level." Fighters know all weapons. It's kinda one of their things. It shouldn't take someone a dozen levels to get them.
2. I'd probably split it into only two or three proficiency granting levels: either levels 1 and 3, or 1, 2, and 3.
3. Classes would say, "If you take this class at 1st level, you gain..." and you'd get all of the proficiencies at once. Otherwise you get them in the gradiated manner.
4. I would not make your relative levels in each class matter in any other way than simply which class you took at 1st level. It gets to be a mess that way. Just something extra to keep track of.

I think you still want to build in a safeguard for people dipping Class X at level 1, then never taking it again.

Perhaps your class at the first level is your primary class. Your primary class must be your highest level class until you reach level X in your primary class. A simpler rule that prevents a 1st level fighter taking 19 levels of mage.