D&D 5E Multiclassing discussion

[Sword of Spirit]

Note that there are no dead levels on the mage chart. If you aren't getting access to a higher spell level you are getting a class/subclass feature or an ability score boost. So for an idea of how appealing a single level dip into fighter is, simply compare a Fighter 1/Wizard x, with a Wizard x+1 at a variety of levels. I think the single class wizard might make a better showing than many people are thinking.

 

[Arduin's]

Note that there are no dead levels on the mage chart. If you aren't getting access to a higher spell level you are getting a class/subclass feature or an ability score boost. So for an idea of how appealing a single level dip into fighter is, simply compare a Fighter 1/Wizard x, with a Wizard x+1 at a variety of levels. I think the single class wizard might make a better showing than many people are thinking.

After 35 years of messing with this scenario I know what you are getting at is correct.

 

[Dausuul]

Note that there are no dead levels on the mage chart. If you aren't getting access to a higher spell level you are getting a class/subclass feature or an ability score boost. So for an idea of how appealing a single level dip into fighter is, simply compare a Fighter 1/Wizard x, with a Wizard x+1 at a variety of levels. I think the single class wizard might make a better showing than many people are thinking.

This is a very good point. Let's have a look. In exchange for +6 AC, proficiency with Con saves, +4 hit points, and a few minor perks:

• F1/W1 versus W2: You give up a 1st-level spell slot, two spells known, and your choice of a) all opponents have disadvantage when attacking you, b) you can exclude your allies from your evocation AoEs, or c) you get minor illusion free and can create both image and sound.
• F1/W3 versus W4: You give up a 2nd-level spell slot, two spells known, and your choice of a) +2 Intelligence* or b) a feat.
• F1/W5 versus W6: You give up a 3rd-level spell slot, two spells known, and your choice of a) the ability to redirect an enemy's attack from you to the nearest target whether friend or foe (Wis save to resist), b) your attack cantrips do half damage on a miss or successful save, or c) the ability to cast invisibility as a reaction to taking damage.
• F1/W7 versus W8: You give up a 4th-level spell slot, two spells known, and your choice of a) +2 Intelligence* or b) a feat.
• F1/W9 versus W10: You give up a 5th-level spell slot, two spells known, and your choice of a) +2 to any ability score or b) a feat.
• F1/W11 versus W12: You give up two spells known, and your choice of a) the ability to have your single-target enchantments target two creatures, b) the ability to deal maximum damage one/day with a spell up to third level, plus additional times if you're willing to risk backlash, or c) immunity to the first attack that targets you before your first turn of combat.
• F1/W13 versus W14: You give up two spells known, and your choice of a) +2 to any ability score or b) a feat.
• F1/W15 versus W16: You give up two spells known, and your choice of a) swift casting of all enchantment spells, b) add your Int modifier to all evocation damage rolls, or c) you can make your illusions partly real and change which parts are real every round.
• F1/W17 versus W18: You give up two spells known, and unlimited casting of one 1st-level spell and one 2nd-level spell.
• F1/W18 versus W19: You give up two spells known, and your choice of a) +2 to any ability score or b) a feat.
• F1/W19 versus W20: You give up two spells known, and your choice of a) the ability to rewrite the memories of creatures you charm, b) unlimited casting of fireball and lightning bolt, or c) the ability to cast major image at will.

Oh, and since all but one of those are even-numbered levels, you're also sacrificing the ability to recover 1 extra spell level a day.

Wow. Those tradeoffs sting even more than I thought they would. I'd have trouble justifying any of those except maybe the 14th-level and 19th-level ones. And I bet that will change once we see the full list of feats.

[SIZE=-2]*Technically any ability score, but come on, you're a wizard. You know where your first two stat bumps are going.[/SIZE]

 

[Mistwell]

This is a very good point. Let's have a look. In exchange for +6 AC, proficiency with Con saves, +4 hit points, and a few minor perks:

That's a massive hand-waive you just did there.

First, it allows you to dump Dex as a stat. Two PCs who both have a 10 dex (though you could even go 8 dex now), and now it's Mage Armor 13 AC vs. Plate (+8) + Shield (+2) + Defense (+1) = 21 AC (so that is +8 AC, not +6). AND you had to choose the Mage Armor spell for your spell book, and spend a first level spell slot using it, and it's only lasting 8 hours from that casting. All that is something the mutli-class character doesn't need to do...and you mentioned the loss of a first level spell slot, but Mage Armor is that spell slot so that is a push.

Next, you have proficiency with not just that armor and shield, but also with all those weapons (and mounts).

Then you get Second Wind, which can save the life of a Wizard, particularly at low levels.

And you get more hit points, to go with that second wind.

And you get proficiency in both Strength and Con saves, not just Con saves. So now you have four of the six stats with proficiency.

And finally, you're now only one level of Fighter away from casting two spells in one round with Action Surge!

That's a heck of a lot more than what you listed.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Another bonus to the wizard is that extra prepared spell per day. While spells prepared doesn't sound like a big deal, when actually making wizard characters I've found myself unsatisfied with the number of spells I can prepare on a pretty consistent basis. So, at least for me, giving up that prepared spell is kind of a big deal. (If they give you auto-prepared spells based on subclass--which they should--that will become much less of an issue.)

 

[Dausuul]

That's a heck of a lot more than what you listed.

I already mentioned the 4 extra hit points. I will concede the value of not needing Dexterity and the extra 1st-level slot and spell; those are indeed quite nice. Strength saves and Second Wind fall in the "minor perks" bucket--sure, they're nice, but they don't count for a whole lot. Weapon proficiencies don't even make the "minor perk" grade once you hit Wizard 5. What weapon are you going to use, in one hand, that's better than a 2d8 attack cantrip? Remember that you dumped Dexterity to get extra ability points, so your Dex is crap, and you'd be silly to waste those points on Str instead of Con, Wis, or Cha.

As for Action Surge, I have repeatedly agreed that Action Surge is too good. That's a legit exploit that needs fixing. You shouldn't be able to cast spells with it. But it's not relevant to the question of whether a 1-level dip in fighter is balanced.

 

[Obryn]

So, unsurprisingly and disappointingly, you're saying that wizard levels are more valuable than fighter levels.

 

[Dausuul]

So, unsurprisingly and disappointingly, you're saying that wizard levels are more valuable than fighter levels.

Oh, please. That's not what I'm saying at all.

What I'm saying is that one level of your primary class is on par with, and often much better than, adding a 1-level dip in any other class. Fighters are built for front-line combat using weapons. Wizard tactics typically involve standing in the back casting spells. Thus, the value to a wizard of improving your ability to stand in the front line and fight with weapons is rather limited.

The same logic works even better in reverse: What's a fighter going to do with a level of wizard, that could possibly compare to the value of another fighter level? We have people arguing that wizards get too much benefit from dipping a level of fighter. I disagree but they make a decent case. I challenge anyone to show significant value in a fighter dipping a level (just one level, we already know Aura of Antipathy is broken, Mearls has said it's being fixed) of wizard.

 

[Obryn]

Oh, please. That's not what I'm saying at all.

What I'm saying is that one level of your primary class is on par with, and often much better than, adding a 1-level dip in any other class. Fighters are built for front-line combat using weapons. Wizard tactics typically involve standing in the back casting spells. Thus, the value to a wizard of improving your ability to stand in the front line and fight with weapons is rather limited.

The same logic works even better in reverse: What's a fighter going to do with a level of wizard, that could possibly compare to the value of another fighter level? We have people arguing that wizards get too much benefit from dipping a level of fighter. I disagree but they make a decent case. I challenge anyone to show significant value in a fighter dipping a level (just one level, we already know Aura of Antipathy is broken, Mearls has said it's being fixed) of wizard.

I think 1-level dips are kind of a sideshow when the big picture is the deeper synergies between class features.

Allowing point-buy multiclassing almost inevitably creates troublesome synergies unless you cripple class features at early levels. I think that's too high a cost, design-wise. I shouldn't need to wait until 5th level to get {Cool Stuff} for my {Awesomazer} because if we put it at 1st or 2nd level, {Dairy-sorcerers} will take a 1- or 2-level dip of {Awesomazer} and get {Cool Stuff}, too, which interacts in a way destructive to game balance with their {Cheesomancer} feature. At-will multiclassing damages a strong class-based system.

 

[bogmad]

At-will multiclassing damages a strong class-based system.

Given that we have At-Will multiclassing, what do you suggest the fix is? Other than prevent front-loading?
Especially if you rush through the apprentice levels or they cost relatively less xp than later levels, then it could make even more sense. If the cost of early levels is lower, then a first level pc is going to get to 3rd level in a class faster than a multi-class character who's using his 4th character level to take a dip in fighter.

Perhaps a good mult-classing rule is that you must reach 3rd (name?) level before you can take a dip in another class? That would also prevent starting at a level of fighter and taking only mage after to circumvent the ability score restrictions (if those are even there in their initial form after being discussed to no end).