The Power of Prayer

[Ahnehnois]

I don't think that niche protection needs to be so tightly defined that no one outside that niche can ever possibly succeed. A mid to high level cleric can throw miracles around like they're going out of style. If you give a devout character a rare intervention when they really need it, I can't see anyone getting upset over it.

I can. It's something I see all the time in different forms on these boards. What can the fighter do that no one else can do? The suggestion that the answer to that question should be "nothing" is contentious.

But since we're always discussing fighters, I thought I'd try talking about some other class's niche for a change.

I haven't answered my own poll, but the answer I want to put is #2, because casting a divine spell should really be something that happens in the game as an expression of faith, not on your character sheet as an expression of resource allocation. That's more the old school mentality that these divine intervention rules are designed for.

On a related note, for similar reasons, I really hated the rule in 3rd that only allowed rogues to find traps that had a DC over 20. I typically house ruled it so that anyone could find traps but a rogue could simply do so better.

That is what of those idiosyncratic but stupid mistakes that are sprinkled throughout 3e. A lot of the needless exclusivity was removed from 2e, but some still remains. It reminds me of the Sean K Reynolds articles about how absolute impossibilities should be replaced by probability shifts that still allow things to conceivably happen.

I love the idea of an agent (likely an angel of some sort) appearing before the PC and healing his wife. This being could become a very interesting recurring NPC...it might not even be what it appears to be....

How dastardly of you. I suppose that's what I get for positing a vague scenario. (And I suppose that's what the fighter gets for asking mystical entities for help).

 

[Umbran]

Well, aside from the particulars of a given ruleset, and the setting...

There's an issue of game balance here. We're talking about an adventuring party of two characters. Normally, as a GM I would put other resources at hand. The game is designed to have magical healing at hand, after all.

At one end of the spectrum, then: I've been a numbskull and didn't give access to other resources. All that work with the faithful, and not one monk who knows first aid travels along with them? No extra potions as treasure or gratitutde. Nothing. Well, then I'm apt to cut the character some slack, 'cause the situation is my fault. This is cutting the *wife* character some slack, actually - that player should not suffer a loss due to a GM mistake.

At the other end of the spectrum: If I wasn't a numbskull, and these players have recklessly burned through all the potions, have lost, been separated from, or had all NPCs die, and yet still he continued to where they are in this position? There's a point where failure to retreat is the player's own fault, and the dice fall where they may.

And,t here's all the nuance in between, with varying levels of my cutting them some slack.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I can. It's something I see all the time in different forms on these boards. What can the fighter do that no one else can do? The suggestion that the answer to that question should be "nothing" is contentious.

But since we're always discussing fighters, I thought I'd try talking about some other class's niche for a change.

I think it's a matter of frequency and repeatability. Divine intervention is something that, IMO, happens for a devout character maybe once in a campaign, and absolutely never more than three times. It's not reliable and it's rare.

In a 3rd edition campaign, a favorite moment happened when we were going up against a boss who was a cloud giant. He was getting the better of us, dropping us until only the Annis Hag (from Savage Species) remained standing. She roleplayed looking at her fallen companions and becoming enraged, and the DM decided to let her Rage as if she were a Barbarian. She ended up missing the next round and the boss fumble-crit himself to death (we were using fumbling rules at the time), but that's not especially pertinent. Although I don't believe we had a Barbarian in that party, I don't think anyone playing a Barbarian would have had an issue with it. She was literally fighting to save us from a TPK. Moreover, she roleplayed the moment well, and it was the only time in the entire campaign that she Raged.

That is what of those idiosyncratic but stupid mistakes that are sprinkled throughout 3e. A lot of the needless exclusivity was removed from 2e, but some still remains. It reminds me of the Sean K Reynolds articles about how absolute impossibilities should be replaced by probability shifts that still allow things to conceivably happen.

I do like that article, though after I thought about it a bit the first time I read it, I came to disagree with the conclusion. If a fire immune creature has 60 fire resistance instead, then the Uberfire feat needs to either let the mage ignore fire resistance (which is what the immunity penetration feat effectively did) or it should give the mage more fire damage (which is bad because now the mage's fireballs are overpowered versus opponents without fire resistance). The one thing I will grant that approach is that it's arguably more realistic. It's not a worse approach, but I don't think it's better (in the majority of cases).

 

[The Human Target]

So you'd do one of those middle three options, and then use it to start a follow-up quest where the character repays his deity's generosity. That's all well and good; a bit beyond the scope of what I meant to ask but it certainly makes sense.

If I understand correctly, doing whatever's interesting would come before following the rules?

I mean, absolutely that's one of those situations where that could be true.

There aren't rules for such a thing though, beyond basic death and dying rules.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I mean, absolutely that's one of those situations where that could be true.

There aren't rules for such a thing though, beyond basic death and dying rules.

There are rules for having deities intervene to save people from dying. That's what Cure spells are.

It is, however, the sort of situation where it's questionable whether the rulebook should be used to adjudicate it. The rules don't really cover prayer outside of a spellcasting context at all (except the divine intervention chance mentioned earlier), so it can be seen as a question of whether to stick with the book or wing it.

 

[The Human Target]

There are cure spells.

There aren't usually rules for miracles.

 

[Ahnehnois]

There are cure spells.

There aren't usually rules for miracles.

Whether those things are different is a matter of opinion. A cure spell seems pretty miraculous to me. But depending on how you view spells in the campaign world, it might not be.

 

[Obryn]

It depends on the tone of the campaign, the role of the gods, and what happened leading up to it. If there's some narrative metagame tokens to toss around, throw some in ofor a chance. If there's Aspects, allow some kind of roll. And so on.

There's a good shot I'd allow for something and then charge a cost later, if that's the most interesting result.

 

[Dungeoneer]

Take the following character: a human fighter of moderate but not spectacular level (let's say he's level 6 or so). He's good at fighting but also a very pious man. He worships the local NG deity (let's say Pelor or some close equivalent; the most common NG deity who includes healing among other things in his sphere of influence), and frequently roleplays his prayers to said deity. He buys potions only from this deity's temples, and leaves a little extra gold as a tithe. He frequently helps other worshippers in need. He spreads the faith. He never asks for anything in return.

However, he only ever takes levels of fighter, and has no spells or supernatural abilities of any sort. A few ranks in Knowledge (Religion) or whatever the system calls it, perhaps, but he's not a cleric, not by a long shot. His Wisdom is low enough that he couldn't cast spells even if he wanted to learn. He has no interest in being anything other than a fighter.

Now, he's fighting a pitched battle, and his character's wife, a fellow PC and likewise a faithful follower of the same deity, is felled by an orc, being dropped unconscious and helpless and down to within a point or two of dying. She might stabilize, but she'll probably die soon without help. With no healer in sight, the fighter finishes off the orcs and rushes to his fallen wife. Not knowing whether she's alive or dead and possessing no healing skill or magic items to speak of, the fighter prays for his wife's survival, begging his NG deity to heal her and keep her alive.

What happens next?

Pick whatever option you like the best.

This is a very interesting scenario. Is it based on something from one of your games, or is it strictly hypothetical?

So, the thing about D&D specifically that makes this scenario weird is that 'faith' has a mechanical component (sometimes! not always). There are specific classes that use faith to cast what is basically magic. Of course virtually every PC or NPC in the game follows a god of some sort without being shoehorned into a divine class. So arguably piety does not REQUIRE the PC to be a divine class.

I see several responses along the lines of, "Well, if the PC is so pious why isn't he a cleric?" But there are lots of examples of pious non-divine characters in D&D (the classic dwarf fighter who is a devotee of Moradin being an obvious example). The other problem is that a cleric isn't just a fighter + piety. A cleric fills a different niche from a fighter entirely.

A paladin is closer to being a 'pious fighter' but even here there are key differences. Depending on the edition, a paladin may have important mechanical differences from a fighter (probably including heavier armor). Paladins are also notorious for having alignment restrictions and following certain very specific play-styles. This may be off-putting to some players.

So it seems like a player might have legitimate reasons for playing a pious fighter.

So the next question is, does our pious fighter get to enjoy even a small taste of the abilities reserved for 'mechanically pious' classes?

I say 'yes'. The only reason to deny the fighter his miracle is because it supposedly infringes on the territory of the cleric. But we're not talking about letting the fighter go about casting cure spells willy-nilly. This is a one-time, limited use event. There is apparently no cleric in the party to feel affronted by it. So basically it hurts no one and it is an awesome payoff for the player's character. And this player has obviously been diligently roleplaying his PC, so I think he's earned that payoff.

I would have the payoff take the form of a cure spell out of the blue, unless the DM had story reasons to have one of the gods put on an appearance. Either way, it should be something visible, miraculous and more interesting than a fudged dice roll.

Now, going forward I would talk to this player about steering their character towards a class with mechanical divine casting abilities. Probably paladin, because everything about him screams 'pally' to me! Perhaps the PC has a divine vision and is given a quest, upon completion of which they are transformed into a paladin. That seems to be the direction their character arc is taking, and it would let the player have a real mechanical benefit for his character's piety, which ultimately I think would be good for everyone.

In other words, say "Yes, and..."!

"Yes, your prayer was answered, and you also see a vision calling you to become a paladin!" Problem solved, story advanced, rules of the game appeased.

 

[Will Doyle]

I usually call for a percentile "prayer roll". I'm pleased to read that this came from 1E! I'd forgotten that rule, and always assumed it was our own house rule.

I usually go for a 1% chance of divine aid, with bonuses depending on class and situation. Clerics get a +4% bonus, but any character could get an equal or better bonus if they're in a desperate situation that's pivotal to that character's story (such as you describe). To stop players spamming it, I also include wrath at the opposite end. A roll of 99-00 could result in a curse.

It's amazing how many times it's worked in dire straits. At the climax of a WFRP campaign, a character prayed while falling hundreds of feet from a bridge after being pushed by the dying villain, and struck the 1%. There was much whooping.