Conflicting feats question

[NuSair]

Robilar's Gambit:
......Resolve your attack of opportunity after your foe's attack.


Sidestep:
Once per round, when you make an attack of opportunity, you may take a 5- foot step after you attack. This 5-foot step doesn't count against your limit of one 5-foot step per round or against any movement you take on your turn.


Question:
You make an AoO against your opponent who has Robilar's, can you step back out of range before his AoO resolves? They both have the same trigger and both wait until after the attack to resolve. The only similar thing I can find is when there is tied initiative, the first action goes to the one with the higher Dexterity bonus. Should it be the same here?

 

[Nagol]

I'd say Robilar's Gambit wins.

The AoO occurs at the end of the attack. The 5-foot step is technically a separate free action that occurs after the attack is complete.

So

Attack --> trigger AoO --> next action is free 5-ft move

 

[Ahnehnois]

I'd say no. Resolve all the attacks first and then let the character move.

That's just my commonsense interpretation of how I think it should work. I don't see any clear RAW answer for this rather odd corner case.

 

[billd91]

I'd also say no, in fact, I'd say that the feat descriptions pretty much puts issues of order of operations to rest.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

The order things happen is pretty clearly stated by the feats' rules. Your opponent makes an attack, and then you make an attack, and after you have made your attack you can take a 5FS.

Keep in mind the possibility of a loop regarding Robilar's Gambit though. If two characters with the feat have it and one attacks another, how long are you going to allow them to attack each other based on AoOs?

The rules would actually have the characters play the whole thing out (since Combat Reflexes is a requirement, they're both likely to have at least 2 AoOs each), but to keep things sane and quick you might want to add in a rule that says an AoO cannot trigger another AoO.

 

[NuSair]

I'd also say no, in fact, I'd say that the feat descriptions pretty much puts issues of order of operations to rest.

How so? They both have the same trigger- when you make an attack, and both have the same resolution- after resolving the attack.

 

[NuSair]

The order things happen is pretty clearly stated by the feats' rules. Your opponent makes an attack, and then you make an attack, and after you have made your attack you can take a 5FS.

Keep in mind the possibility of a loop regarding Robilar's Gambit though. If two characters with the feat have it and one attacks another, how long are you going to allow them to attack each other based on AoOs?

The rules would actually have the characters play the whole thing out (since Combat Reflexes is a requirement, they're both likely to have at least 2 AoOs each), but to keep things sane and quick you might want to add in a rule that says an AoO cannot trigger another AoO.

Yes, I am well aware of the loop. The players in my 2 year campaign are reaching 20th level and one just acquired Improved Combat Reflexes. And there are a couple of NPCs with this trait as well. One of the NPCs is an AoO specialist with Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike, Double Hit, Robilar's Gambit, Mobility, Elusive Target, Power Attack, Overpowering Attack, Sidestep and Improved Combat Reflexes.

It seems that someone with just Robilar's Gambit and Improved Combat Reflexes matches that, if I go with what is being said here. Which I am not sure I agree with atm. Given both feats have the same trigger and resolution.

I have two problems in setting up a rule like that (AoO cannot trigger an AoO). 1- there are examples given in official materials about just that- AoO giving AoO and 2- given the nature of some of the NPCs I have developed and the players who have taken some feats against that I am not sure that would go over well at this point in the game.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

So the scenario you have is that two characters have Robilar's, but one has Sidestep, so the following situation would go:

Character A makes a normal attack against Character B (hereafter just A and B for brevity). B can make an AoO once A's attack is resolved. At this point, A could make its own AoO, and B could use Sidestep.

Is that the scenario you're describing? If so, there pretty much won't be official rules on that because it's such an esoteric rules interaction. The thing I think would be most reasonable is the character with Sidestep could use the 5FS before the opponent's AoO because the character is prepping for such a thing thanks to the training of having those feats in the first place. One might envision making the AoO and taking the 5FS as a fluid movement of an attack going into the 5FS.


Incidentally, a 20th level character can't take epic feats. As the epic feat rules state:

"At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat."

After all, a character isn't considered epic yet until it has 21 or more character levels.

 

[Celebrim]

There is a simple solution to all this.

Ban Robilar's Gambit.

 

[NuSair]

There is a simple solution to all this.

Ban Robilar's Gambit.

Yeah, if I run another 3.x campaign, I'll probably do that.