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D&D 5E Legends & Lore 3/17 /14

What seems off about the jackalweres being tied to Graz'zt is that jackalweres have been associated with dry lands, and they've always had an Egyptian vibe in my games. Graz'zt doesn't associate readily with deserts or Egyptian themes (unless they're rescinding him in 5e), but a god like Set fits that role quite naturally.

That's what I mean about the lore feeling a bit forced.

I really like that they add this kind of flavor and lore to the monster descriptions. But I agree with Quickleaf, this particular lore doesn't seem to fit the monster very well. Jackalweres fit an Egyptian-themed deity much better. And given the game already has a strong Egyptian-themed setting (Dark Sun), it should have been tied to those concepts if they wanted to reinforce their IP with the Jacklewere.
 

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I'm with KM on this one. And I might add: What is bad about doing things KM's way? Instead of presenting a singular default story, present a couple of options. Now there's twice the backstory material for DMs to draw on, and it's clearly established that none of it is Authoritative.
 

I guess where I disagree is that I don't see players who make the assumptions that the writers of the books clearly intended them to make as obnoxious. They're mislead. Under-informed.

Hogwash. How many times does the game have to scream "ANYTHING IN THIS BOOK IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE AT YOUR OWN TABLE!!!" before we can finally put the impetus back onto the player to actually understand that?

They listened to someone who promised to tell them the way things were, but the thing that they listened to wasn't entirely honest. It omitted a lot of how things are. It showed you the color orange and said "rainbows are this color," which is true, but they're also a lot of other colors. It elided the interesting complexity in the world in favor of....well, I don't know, exactly.

No... they read a book that said Monster X had Y backstory... *and* that other games will not necessarily use that backstory. Just because the Y backstory is written here for all those players who don't want to make up their own... DON'T PRESUME that this is how it is in every game.

Basically, all you rules lawyers and book memorizers... STOP METAGAMING!

To throw a bone to a brand team that is terrified of honest complexity? To make the designers' amateur fiction-writing dreams come a little bit true? There's value in the stories that the designers tell, Mearls says. What he doesn't say is why those stories are so valuable that they need to be presumed standard. Why is that worth the (admittedly, small in most cases) hassle of contradicting a player who presumes that rainbows are orange or that jackalweres are Grazz'zt-related?

They are "presumed standard" by you *only* because they appear in the Monster Manual. But your suggestions to combat this have always seemed to be either to remove all narrative function from monster entries (thereby screwing over all the players who do not have the time or wherewithal to make their own)... or else list three to five different narrative functions in every monster entry all for the purpose of making sure all of our supposedly reading comprehensionally-challenged players out there pick up on the fact that these monsters can be used different ways in different settings. Because just stating that plainly off the top of the book somehow isn't enough. But of course, doing this expands every single monster entry by several paragraphs, thereby reducing the number of monsters that end up in the book.

Quite frankly, KM... I have absolutely no idea why these players in your head somehow are able to memorize the backstory of all these monsters so completely that they will get upset or offended when they aren't used that way in a particular game... but somehow are incapable of memorizing the simple sentence "Anything in this book can be different in a different setting or at a different table."

THESE are the players that I don't feel WotC needs to cater to. They feel entitled to treat everything in the Monster Manual as the "One True Way" and refuse to accept one simple sentence that things can be changed. No, those players are not "mislead". No, they are not "under-informed". They are obnoxious.
 
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I'm with KM on this one. And I might add: What is bad about doing things KM's way? Instead of presenting a singular default story, present a couple of options. Now there's twice the backstory material for DMs to draw on, and it's clearly established that none of it is Authoritative.

Personally... I'd rather have two monsters with one backstory in the MM each... than one monster with two. Save the second backstory for the individual campaign setting for which it applies.
 

I don't get why people are getting tied up in semantics. Nothing better to debate while we for the game to come (I recall this same problem in 08 and 99, come to think of it).How hand-holdy does the game need to be? "Monster X is this" vs "Monster x could be this"? Really?

A new DM will use the information from the book as is, and be happy that it's there. A vet DM will do what he likes with the info, as he should do with each and every single book he uses to craft his game, but it doesn't hurt to have a default assumption to stir the imagination or even take and use in his game.

The players should only have default assumptions for monsters that are common to the campaign, and a good DM will tell them what their PCs know about them. Everything else is fair game for the DM to use or change up as he pleases, and to introduce to the players as the PCs meet up with them.

I can see a problem with this is if overly pervasive and makes using the MM with a non-default published campaign setting without creating a list in the setting book saying "monster x isn't this, but is this; monster y isn't this, but this; monster z..." That is a bit clumsy. But there is precedent for carrying over iconic named monsters/gods from setting to setting. Tiamat, Grazz't, Orcus, Vecna, Moradin, Corellon, Bane. I expect the trend to continue.
 

It's disheartening, though. It's like you were really excited by this job interview, learned about the company, researched the position, and absorbed the mission statement as your own. And then you get there, and they person you're interviewing with tells you it's a different position, at a different company, and actually all that stuff you read up on is out-dated now.

"Why'd I even read that and care about it, if I can't use it?"

The players can also learn the lore through their characters during actual play. Part of the fun of exploration play is finding things out firsthand. Whats the point in discovering a world that you have already studied to death? Sometimes its fun if part of the "lore" isn't actual fact but rather more like the mythology that we have. Thats how I see most published information for monsters and things. Legends that may be true, partially true, or completely false. Adventurers are the ones who go out and get firsthand knowledge of these things.
 

It depends.

I think if you're playing with people who've already played D&D a bunch and an experienced DM who has the time and energy to custom make things and players who have read through the books carefully, it could (theoretically) propose a problem.

However, if you're playing with folks who are new-ish to D&D, then giving everyone some sort of base core world is a good thing. We keep looking at this only from the perspective that all D&D Next potential players are people who are vets and go to the level of experience that, frankly, not that many people have. I don't want a game that caters to my experience level, because then we will be the only generation of people who ever play D&D as it is ignored by the following generations.

Also, see "each game is different" hammer that is used repeatedly throughout the books. If players can't handle that, they may be engaged players who read through the books and care, but they're ignoring the forest for the trees.
 

The players can also learn the lore through their characters during actual play. Part of the fun of exploration play is finding things out firsthand. Whats the point in discovering a world that you have already studied to death? Sometimes its fun if part of the "lore" isn't actual fact but rather more like the mythology that we have. Thats how I see most published information for monsters and things. Legends that may be true, partially true, or completely false. Adventurers are the ones who go out and get firsthand knowledge of these things.

That is how I'd like it to happen in play. I think "options, not assumptions" in the MM could help this, because there will always be a question of "what kind of X is this DM using?" -- that is, if Jackalweres in the Nentir Vale are X and in FR they're Y, in this DM's setting are they X or Y or some subtle variation or something completely new? Even players with extensive knowledge of the lore in the books will have to ask some in-character questions to discover what THESE particular critters are like.

Cybit said:
However, if you're playing with folks who are new-ish to D&D, then giving everyone some sort of base core world is a good thing.

I don't know that this is true. If you're new-ish to D&D, what's going to be better, having some sort of universal base core world, or having the books tell you about all the strange and wonderful places that this game can take you -- and that you can make yourself -- to by describing the different creatures that you might encounter in different lands and settings? What's better, being lead gently to believe that everyone's game is the same, or having the fact that your game is absolutely unique on this earth celebrated as one of the most fun things about this game of make-believe?

The game needs usable examples out-of-the-box, I feel. But those examples have a responsibility to be what they are -- examples -- and not try to be something that newbies can assume is true about D&D in general.
 
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That is how I'd like it to happen in play. I think "options, not assumptions" in the MM could help this, because there will always be a question of "what kind of X is this DM using?" -- that is, if Jackalweres in the Nentir Vale are X and in FR they're Y, in this DM's setting are they X or Y or some subtle variation or something completely new? Even players with extensive knowledge of the lore in the books will have to ask some in-character questions to discover what THESE particular critters are like.

These options take up space in the MM or wherever they appear. If the answer is going to be "none of the above" then all that lore is wasted space. One common default is good enough with any additional info being included in specific setting material if it differs greatly from the default. It also advances the notion that nothing can be included that wasn't thought of by someone else. Why does creature lore have to be something that players can read and metagame about? A large part of the fun of DMing is making stuff up. Choosing an option from a pre-defined list doesn't cut it sometimes.
 

If you're new-ish to D&D, what's going to be better, having some sort of universal base core world, or having the books tell you about all the strange and wonderful places that this game can take you -- and that you can make yourself -- to by describing the different creatures that you might encounter in different lands and settings?

The former. Because in the latter... these newbies are going to be reading the section on Halflings and say "Wow, these Dark Sun halflings are cool!", then read the entry on the Drow and say "I really like their scorpion connections in this Eberron setting more than the spider thing"... and then go to the table only to be told by the DM "Oh yeah... those descriptions are kinda cool, but we're playing Forgotten Realms. So... sorry."

Well, great. So they get to read all about these wonderful worlds which they never will actually play. Yup... that's a great way to keep new players interested. Entice them with things that they won't actually experience because they come from entirely different worlds than what they are playing. And let them know that yeah... that's true for four out of every five descriptions you read of these monsters. Four-fifths of the entire book means absolutely nothing to you.

Except of course as a really roundabout way of making the new player aware that you too can "open up your imagination" to write your own monster prose should you ever choose to. Because trying to blindly illustrate that in every single monster entry is a much more effective method than just say... writing a concise information and explanation section about that very subject in the Dungeon Master's Guide. Yeah.
 

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