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Knowledge (Local)

I've seen two basic ways to play the skill Knowledge (Local). The first is to allow a character a single Knowledge (Local) skill to represent the character's knowledge about any particular place--where the GM adjusts difficulty of the task based on how likely it is the character will know the information.

For example, if checking to see if a character knows something about his home village, the check might be DC 5. If the character travels to a far off town, then the Knowledge (Local) check for the same type of information might be DC 10 or DC 15 because the character isn't that familiar with the new area. If the character is in a far-off foreign land where he doesn't understand the customs and is not of the predominate race, then the check might be made at a DC 30 or more.

The second way I've seen Knowledge (Local) used is to have the skill tied to a particular place or region, and the character has to purchase different Knowledge (Local) skills for different places and regions as he travels.

Which method do you think is intended by the default 3.5 d20 rules?

Neither. The Knowledge(local) skill acts much like the first example, except that the DC doesn't vary depending on the location. That is, a DC 5 would be common knowledge, but it would be common knowledge whether the PCs are in their home village or halfway across the world.

Which method do you think is best to use in a game?

Rename Knowledge(local) to Streetwise, and assume it's generally useful.
 

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Neither. The Knowledge(local) skill acts much like the first example, except that the DC doesn't vary depending on the location. That is, a DC 5 would be common knowledge, but it would be common knowledge whether the PCs are in their home village or halfway across the world.

Yeah, that's my understanding of what the book says, and it's how we use it in our game too.

That said, if you want to use Knowledge (local) for what you actually know about a given location (as opposed to using it to know about the weaknesses of humanoid enemies, for instance) and don't like the idea of ranks in this skill meaning that you know about all locations everywhere, there's a variant rule in a third-party supplement that I like: you pick an individual location and spend 1 skill point on it, which grants you a +15 bonus to checks made about that place only. You can't spend any further points on that specific locale (though your Int modifier can raise or lower the total bonus).

So if I spend 1 skill point on Knowledge (local; Free City of Greyhawk) and I have an Intelligence of 14, I'll get a +17 whenever we'd have to make Knowledge (local) checks about the Free City of Greyhawk, but that wouldn't apply anywhere else.
 

I thought that would be Gather Information?

It would.

But that would be another skill I just did away with. Gathering information is something that you now do with some other social skill (of your choosing), whether diplomacy, intimidate or bluff.

Nor have I ever really felt the need to rename either Gather Information or Knowledge (Local) as Streetwise. In the sense that there is such a thing, 'Streetwise' is simply having the background (either from the character concept or through play) to fit into a lower class situation without suffering distrust, xenophobia or other penalties on your social skill checks. It's not actually a single skill, but a meta-skill. Meta-skills, that is skillfulness in a broad number of areas related to a concept in this case 'rogue', are better done as feats rather than as skills.

And while we are on the subject, I also did away with Profession as being another ill-defined concept that no one could figure out what to do with, and where it didn't overlap other skills. Profession as it turns out was another meta skill, which is easily seen with something like Profession (Sailor). What would we expect the Profession (Sailor) skill to cover? Well, the ability to sail a boat, to navigate, to climb rigging, to repair sails and other nautical goods, to maintain ones balance on a boat, to tie knots, and so forth. But what is that but specific applications of boating, navigation, climb, craft, balance, use rope, and so forth? We could just as easily say that each was an individual skill and say that professional sailors had some skill in boating, navigation, climb, craft, balance, and use rope and thus do away with ambiguity. If we wanted, we might also have a Feat called something like 'Able Bodied Seaman', which said something like "You gain a +2 bonus on navigation, climb, craft, and balance as they pertains to nautical activities" Again, meta-skills are best implemented as feats.

Knowledge (Local) turns out to be the same sort of thing.
 

Yeah, that's my understanding of what the book says, and it's how we use it in our game too.

That said, if you want to use Knowledge (local) for what you actually know about a given location (as opposed to using it to know about the weaknesses of humanoid enemies, for instance) and don't like the idea of ranks in this skill meaning that you know about all locations everywhere, there's a variant rule in a third-party supplement that I like: you pick an individual location and spend 1 skill point on it, which grants you a +15 bonus to checks made about that place only. You can't spend any further points on that specific locale (though your Int modifier can raise or lower the total bonus).

So if I spend 1 skill point on Knowledge (local; Free City of Greyhawk) and I have an Intelligence of 14, I'll get a +17 whenever we'd have to make Knowledge (local) checks about the Free City of Greyhawk, but that wouldn't apply anywhere else.

Well, I think you see the problem.

But I don't like your solution.

My solution would be to turn Knowledge (Local) into a feat (Local?), that said something like, "You have a gift of fitting into whatever society you find yourself in, quickly picking up the lingo and learning the local lore. You have a +2 bonus on knowledge skill checks pertaining to the laws, custom, history, and people of anywhere you've visited for at least a day. You also have a +2 bonus when attempting to gather information, and may easily adopt the accent and dialect specific to any region provided you've heard it and can speak the parent language so that you can pass yourself off as a native speaker without the need for a disguise check."
 

But I don't like your solution.

My solution would be to turn Knowledge (Local) into a feat (Local?), that said something like, "You have a gift of fitting into whatever society you find yourself in, quickly picking up the lingo and learning the local lore. You have a +2 bonus on knowledge skill checks pertaining to the laws, custom, history, and people of anywhere you've visited for at least a day. You also have a +2 bonus when attempting to gather information, and may easily adopt the accent and dialect specific to any region provided you've heard it and can speak the parent language so that you can pass yourself off as a native speaker without the need for a disguise check."

Well, that wasn't my solution per se; it was in the aforementioned book, though I do like it a lot.

That said, I likewise find myself less than enamored of your idea. Beyond the fact that I don't care for "feat bloat," that description lists such minor bonuses that it doesn't seem worthwhile - it also helps to blur the lines between Knowledge (local) and Gather Information, which strikes me being too blurry to a lot of people to begin with. Adding in issues with Speak Language (which 3.5 doesn't handle very well) or Linguistics (which Pathfinder is only marginally better at), and Disguise, and it just feels jumbled to me.
 
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I would like to keep Knowledge skills as "passive", i.e. what you know or learned. And have Gather Information be "active"...what you can find out.
 

That said, I likewise find myself less than enamored of your idea. Beyond the fact that I don't care for "feat bloat,"...

Feat bloat is a real problem, but it isn't as if the third party solution is avoiding rules bloat. Basically you've added another skill to the system that has non-standard and unique mechanics. In this case, the mechanic is quite similar to having a skill which does nothing on its own but allows you to buy skill stunts. For the cost of 1 skill point, you get a skill stunt that lets you make skill checks in one of several other knowledge skills at a high chance of success, but only if they pertain to a particular location.

The idea behind repurposing skill points being I suppose that PC's have more of them than they have feats. But in terms of the complexity of the game, the skill stunt solution is certainly more complicated than feat bloat. Just imagine even the bloat to the size of the stat block when someone invests 15 skill points in Knowledge Local stunts.

As far as blurring the lines between Knowledge (Local) and Gather Information, I don't see how that is possible under my solution since I've defined both out of existence (and did so like 10 years ago). There is no such thing as 'Knowledge (Local)' in my game. Any question you might ask about a location is covered by a different knowledge type, whether law, culture, persons, geography, history or whatever and you simply roll against that. Any social research you might want to perform of the 'Gather Information' sort is handled by a proposition communicating where you want to go and what you want to learn, and a social skill check depending on your methodology in wanting to learn it. Any academic research you'd want to perform (say in a library) is just essentially an assisted knowledge check of the appropriate sort. So there is no blurring of the lines at all.

Adding in issues with Speak Language (which 3.5 doesn't handle very well) or Linguistics (which Pathfinder is only marginally better at), and Disguise, and it just feels jumbled to me.

And yet, Knowledge (Local) doesn't feel jumbled to you? Gather Information doesn't feel jumbled to you?

What I really want to avoid is the problem you see in GURPS where skills are so precisely defined and yet so ununiform in their granularity that they become nonsense, so that for each specific skill you must essentially define a half-dozen alternative skills that can accomplish the same task, but at different degrees of difficulty. So the problem with Gather Information, Profession, or Knowledge (Local) is that they don't see to define any area of knowledge exclusive to themselves. There is no logical reason why someone with great oratorical skills and great knowledge of the law wouldn't perform well in the capacity of lawyer, and no reason why someone with profession (lawyer) should perform well in it unless they also have great oratorical skills and knowledge of the law. Likewise, there is no reason why someone skilled in making friends, in lying, and in intimidating people to get them to do what they want and knowledgable about the area should have difficulty gathering information and finding informants, and no reason to think that someone who isn't skilled in making friends, or in lying, or in intimidating people to do what they want and who lacks any knowledge of the area should be skilled in gathering information. You've defined more than one way to do things, which is 'skill bloat'.

In many ways this is worse than 'feat bloat', as feat bloat is a problem mostly at 'compile time' where as skill bloat creates problems during 'run time' - that is, during play.

The ad hoc wording of the 'Local' feat that I suggested wasn't in any way intended to be final or well thought out in every regard, but to cover the idea that I think 'Knowledge (Local)' or 'Gather Information' is trying to cover, which I think one of the 'Indiana Jones' skill sets - that of seeming to always have a contact everywhere and always seeming to understand the locality that he is in. Other systems try to handle this by enumerating contacts or by a special power that grants you a contact everywhere, but those systems are from my experience very klunky and unsatisfying as well. Indiana Jones presumably already has been everywhere, as a highly experienced adventurer by the time we see him, something not necessarily true of your average adventurer. Instead, I'm trying to attack the problem from the direction of having the natural talent to become something like Indiana Jones or any other character with that chamleon like ability to just fit in. And in the sense of 'fitting in', the feat in question was intended to broadly grant that ability. Linguistic ability, disguise, social skills, and gathering and knowing information all are part of that. It's no more jumbled than the idea of being an especially good sailor. And its far less jumbled than the notion of being something core to the D&D story like 'an especially good warrior' or 'an especially good wizard', which requires lots of bloat and detail. Whether or not it is 'worthwhile' to call on 'I'm good at fitting in' compared to 'I'm good at fighting', depends on what the experience of play at a particular table is.
 

I had a much more elegant reply written earlier this afternoon; the website ate it. So, trying this again...

Feat bloat is a real problem, but it isn't as if the third party solution is avoiding rules bloat.

There's a difference between feat bloat and rules bloat. The latter is an instance of how many rules you need to know in order to play the game. Feat bloat, by contrast, carried with it an escalating opportunity cost, as there are more and more feats competing for the same few slots.

Likewise, the third-party option I outlined above actually does avoid rules bloat, because it hinges on removing the standard use of Knowledge (local) in favor of that variant. When you've subtracted one thing and replaced it with another, the overall net result is the same.

Basically you've added another skill to the system that has non-standard and unique mechanics. In this case, the mechanic is quite similar to having a skill which does nothing on its own but allows you to buy skill stunts. For the cost of 1 skill point, you get a skill stunt that lets you make skill checks in one of several other knowledge skills at a high chance of success, but only if they pertain to a particular location.

There are a number of things here that need to be cleared up. First is that this use of a skill is "non-standard and unique," that's not the case. Speak Language, in v.3.5, operates under a similar principle in that each skill point spent grants a unique result, rather than adding to a single escalating bonus.

Second, while I'm not sure what precisely you mean by "skill stunts," it's worthwhile to note that the actual use of Knowledge (local) checks, under this rule, are exactly the same as they normally would be. You still make a particular check at a particular DC when Knowledge (local) is called for.

Finally, there's nothing to suggest that you use this version of Knowledge (local) where any other skill would come into play. As noted above, it still covers the exact same niche, save for the fact that it's no longer universal in its applicability.

It's also worth noting that the "very high chance of success" is fairly relative. Skill bonuses are one of the easiest things to increase in d20 System-based games. It's easily conceivable that a character can hit a +15 bonus in a Knowledge skill well before their levels hit the double digits, for instance, which means that they'll eventually reach the same level of knowledge that they would under this variant, save that it'll apply to all localities everywhere.

The idea behind repurposing skill points being I suppose that PC's have more of them than they have feats. But in terms of the complexity of the game, the skill stunt solution is certainly more complicated than feat bloat. Just imagine even the bloat to the size of the stat block when someone invests 15 skill points in Knowledge Local stunts.

I imagine that "bloat" will be very little. There's not much different between a line that says "Knowledge (local) +5" and one that says "Knowledge (local; Evereska, Shadowdale, Tantras, Waterdeep) +16". It'd add a line, two at most; we're not talking about paragraphs - more importantly, it's not adding new mechanics that need to be memorized and taken into account throughout the rest of the stat block or, for that matter, encounter.

As far as blurring the lines between Knowledge (Local) and Gather Information, I don't see how that is possible under my solution since I've defined both out of existence (and did so like 10 years ago). There is no such thing as 'Knowledge (Local)' in my game. Any question you might ask about a location is covered by a different knowledge type, whether law, culture, persons, geography, history or whatever and you simply roll against that. Any social research you might want to perform of the 'Gather Information' sort is handled by a proposition communicating where you want to go and what you want to learn, and a social skill check depending on your methodology in wanting to learn it. Any academic research you'd want to perform (say in a library) is just essentially an assisted knowledge check of the appropriate sort. So there is no blurring of the lines at all.

Insofar as the mechanics go, I agree that they're not conflated if you make one a feat and the other a skill. But that's not what I was trying to convey (though I admittedly didn't make this clear enough). Rather, I was speaking to the idea of Gather Information and Knowledge (local) being concerned with the same thematic area, rather than similar-but-different areas, which is how I see them.

And yet, Knowledge (Local) doesn't feel jumbled to you? Gather Information doesn't feel jumbled to you?

Not particularly, no. It's worth noting that I'm using "jumbled" here to refer to several unrelated areas of task resolution being kludged under the same mechanics. Knowledge (local) and Gather Information both occupy distinctly different areas in my view, and deal with those areas and no others. The only instance of jumbling is having Knowledge (local) refer to both information about a place and having it define what you know about certain categories of monsters.

What I really want to avoid is the problem you see in GURPS where skills are so precisely defined and yet so ununiform in their granularity that they become nonsense, so that for each specific skill you must essentially define a half-dozen alternative skills that can accomplish the same task, but at different degrees of difficulty. So the problem with Gather Information, Profession, or Knowledge (Local) is that they don't see to define any area of knowledge exclusive to themselves.

I think that this speaks to a larger divide about how to approach skill checks. Some people prefer that each skill be distinct in what it can handle with no area of overlap, so that you can't use skill X to solve a problem that requires skill Y, even if they deal with related areas. Others prefer to look at skills with related areas as "different ways to solve the same problem," and allow for skills X, Y, and Z to be used (albeit sometimes with different DCs).

Moreover, the two aren't mutually exclusive, as I've seen examples where people move back and forth between the two ideas, depending on the circumstance.

There is no logical reason why someone with great oratorical skills and great knowledge of the law wouldn't perform well in the capacity of lawyer, and no reason why someone with profession (lawyer) should perform well in it unless they also have great oratorical skills and knowledge of the law. Likewise, there is no reason why someone skilled in making friends, in lying, and in intimidating people to get them to do what they want and knowledgable about the area should have difficulty gathering information and finding informants, and no reason to think that someone who isn't skilled in making friends, or in lying, or in intimidating people to do what they want and who lacks any knowledge of the area should be skilled in gathering information. You've defined more than one way to do things, which is 'skill bloat'.

Insofar as the terminology as concerned, I don't see expanded uses for the existing skills as "skill bloat" - that's a term that I'd use only for adding new skills to the game altogether. While I do think that allowing uses for skills to overlap with other skills is something best avoided, that's not an instance of bloat, to me - it's more of a dilution.

In many ways this is worse than 'feat bloat', as feat bloat is a problem mostly at 'compile time' where as skill bloat creates problems during 'run time' - that is, during play.

Here I disagree. The opportunity cost that comes with choosing feats means that a poor choice about feat selection can haunt you far worse than a poor choice for a few skill points. Skill bonuses occupy a fairly high range; having a bonus that's too high or too low is a relatively minor concern (in fact, a good or a poor d20 roll can bridge that concern entirely for a given check), and so there's little regret to be found in spending or not spending a skill point or two here or there.

Feats, by contrast, are not only far rarer - one slot every two or three levels, rather than a pool of points every level - but they're also more binary. Having a feat, as often as not, opens up a few possibility that you simply couldn't do before. For skills, that only goes for some skills, and only for the first point spent. Not having taken the right feat can follow you past leveling and into the course of the game fairly easily because of that.

The ad hoc wording of the 'Local' feat that I suggested wasn't in any way intended to be final or well thought out in every regard, but to cover the idea that I think 'Knowledge (Local)' or 'Gather Information' is trying to cover, which I think one of the 'Indiana Jones' skill sets - that of seeming to always have a contact everywhere and always seeming to understand the locality that he is in. Other systems try to handle this by enumerating contacts or by a special power that grants you a contact everywhere, but those systems are from my experience very klunky and unsatisfying as well. Indiana Jones presumably already has been everywhere, as a highly experienced adventurer by the time we see him, something not necessarily true of your average adventurer. Instead, I'm trying to attack the problem from the direction of having the natural talent to become something like Indiana Jones or any other character with that chamleon like ability to just fit in. And in the sense of 'fitting in', the feat in question was intended to broadly grant that ability. Linguistic ability, disguise, social skills, and gathering and knowing information all are part of that. It's no more jumbled than the idea of being an especially good sailor. And its far less jumbled than the notion of being something core to the D&D story like 'an especially good warrior' or 'an especially good wizard', which requires lots of bloat and detail. Whether or not it is 'worthwhile' to call on 'I'm good at fitting in' compared to 'I'm good at fighting', depends on what the experience of play at a particular table is.

I'm sympathetic to what you're trying to do here - I just think that the system if working against you. You're trying to input a level of variability that's non-class/level-based into a class/level-based system. It's not surprising that you went with feats to do that, as they're the primary place where the game rules allow for that level of variability to exist.

The consequence of that, however, is that feats have had to absorb that variability so totally that they're now oversaturated with it to a degree that's outstripped their capacity to handle, in terms of how prevalent they are in the process of character creation/representation. Feats are now not only competing with each other for a limited amount of feat slots, but also competing with each other for the degree of non-class-based representation you want to imbue into your character (actual role-playing notwithstanding).

If you want to take a feat that indicates you have contacts in every port, for example, you have to weigh that against needing to wait a few levels before you get to pick another feat (and so it better be useful for those levels), but also against the other feats that help to define your character, such as a feat that lets him tell lies so slick that even magic can miss them, or being able to disarm a character at range with his whip, etc.

I'm suggesting that skills, which are already viewed as having little comparative value compared to feats (and spells, magic items, etc.) have enough room to absorb some of that representative ability, and ease the burden on feats.
 

Mostly your response serves to remind me just how far outside of mainstream 3.X I've gotten.

There's a difference between feat bloat and rules bloat. The latter is an instance of how many rules you need to know in order to play the game. Feat bloat, by contrast, carried with it an escalating opportunity cost, as there are more and more feats competing for the same few slots.

I don't agree that this is problem, nor do I see how it is a problem for the player provided the player accepts the fundamental principle he can't be good at everything. Numerous feats ensure that whatever concept you have, there is something that contributes to it. With a good enough set of feats, it's almost impossible to have a concept that you can't build. So long as you are happy with your feat and how it mechanically informs your concept, why should the fact that you didn't take 20 or 200 feats bother you?

No, by say that I saw problems with feat bloat I didn't mean what seems to bother you at all. What I meant is that as the number of feats increases, your ability to understand the abilities of a character at a glance decreases. The short list of feats actually carries a heavy freight of rules. That's the only thing that bothers me with feats. However, it's less of a bother to a player, sense they only have to recall what they can do with their short list of feats for a single character.

Other problems that I've seen in 3rd party supplements with feat bloat generally involve things like a) feat tax, in that some feats are so good everyone feels compelled to take them, b) pointless feats, in that they are so weak no one would ever take them, c) unbalanced feats in that some feats strengthen already strong concepts where as others insufficiently support others, d) outright brokenness and poorly considered rules resulting for lack of play testing or foresight in the design. I try to be very careful when adding a feat. I think I've largely avoided all these problems, and in any event, they are all far smaller problems than those resulting from a bloat of classes and prestige classes, templates, and monstrous races as PC's.

Likewise, the third-party option I outlined above actually does avoid rules bloat, because it hinges on removing the standard use of Knowledge (local) in favor of that variant. When you've subtracted one thing and replaced it with another, the overall net result is the same.

Knowledge (Local) doesn't have a unique mechanic RAW. It shares the basic mechanic with the overall D20 mechanic the game is rooted in. When you remove a standard mechanic and replace it with a specialized one, the net result is not the same.

First is that this use of a skill is "non-standard and unique," that's not the case. Speak Language, in v.3.5, operates under a similar principle in that each skill point spent grants a unique result, rather than adding to a single escalating bonus.

It is similar, but it isn't the same. Instead Speak Language has its own unique mechanic, and now Knowledge (Local) does as well. And for that matter, so do Run and Porter (my own homebrew skills). But it bugs the heck out of me and if I could think of a better way, I would.

Second, while I'm not sure what precisely you mean by "skill stunts,"

Rules bloat introduced in 3.5.

Finally, there's nothing to suggest that you use this version of Knowledge (local) where any other skill would come into play.

With respect to Know (Local) 3.5 cleaned up things compared to 3.0, but it still left a lot of ambiguity. It seems like your ok with the ambiguity.

Suppose I want to know about the ancient past, the world's equivalent to the events of the Trojan War, and I happen to be in Sparta (or its equivalent). Do I roll against Knowledge (History) to learn the cities history, or against Knowledge (Religion) because the events have passed into an age of myth and concern stories of the gods, or Knowledge (Local) because it involves legends of the city's founders? Suppose I want to know who the king of the city is. Do I roll against Knowledge (Geography) to learn about the people living in the land, or against Knowledge (Nobility & Heraldry) because it involves royalty, or against Knowledge (Local) because it is about inhabitants? Your answer just seems to be, "Shrug, just let them roll." There is nothing wrong with that, but it works in a small way against the idea that skills are valuable.

Here I disagree. The opportunity cost that comes with choosing feats means that a poor choice about feat selection can haunt you far worse than a poor choice for a few skill points.

There is a 'simple' solution to that as a game designer/game master. Don't write into your game feats that are thematically weak. A feat can be poorly suited to the particular game being played but that's not the same thing. Gaining a natural climb speed in trees might not be much good to you in a city game, but might be quite worthwhile in a game set largely in the jungle. As long as a feat helps draw spotlight to you and helps you do what you want to do with your character, it's not a bad feat. If there is such a thing as a feat that fits a theme but adds too little to a character, the feat should be strengthened.

Feats, by contrast, are not only far rarer - one slot every two or three levels, rather than a pool of points every level - but they're also more binary. Having a feat, as often as not, opens up a few possibility that you simply couldn't do before. For skills, that only goes for some skills, and only for the first point spent. Not having taken the right feat can follow you past leveling and into the course of the game fairly easily because of that.

This sentence is one of those that told me my game has evolved quite radically away from the main 3.X family. In my game, feats largely serve to distinguish you in a narrow field above (or sometimes below) what would be expected for your level, while skills largely serve to open up possibilities. So in that sense, however much 3.X might be working against me, my own game isn't. Let me give you an example:

If you want to take a feat that indicates you have contacts in every port, for example, you have to weigh that against needing to wait a few levels before you get to pick another feat (and so it better be useful for those levels), but also against the other feats that help to define your character, such as a feat that lets him tell lies so slick that even magic can miss them, or being able to disarm a character at range with his whip, etc.

You don't need a feat in my game to tell lies so slick that even magic can miss them. You just have to be good at the Bluff skill. You don't need a feat to disarm a character at range with a whip; you just need to be proficient with a whip.

I am always looking for opportunities to move abilities opened up by feats into simple uses of a skill so that simply being skillful at something allows you to do much or all of what you might otherwise be only able to do with many feats. And I'm always looking for ways to rewrite powers so that they are dependent on skills.

And what you called 'jumbled' looking at my off the top of my head attempt at making a feat to theme, I call being broadly useful. It ensures that if you take a feat suited to your character, you'll probably have many opportunities to employ it. Ultimately feats have to be measured against spells. You don't, or rather I think you shouldn't, look at numerous spells and complain of 'spell bloat' creating opportunity costs, or at a spell description that allows many uses and options and say 'that's jumbled'.
 

Mostly your response serves to remind me just how far outside of mainstream 3.X I've gotten.

So you're saying I'm the voice of mainstream 3.5? Um...thanks? :confused:

I don't agree that this is problem, nor do I see how it is a problem for the player provided the player accepts the fundamental principle he can't be good at everything. Numerous feats ensure that whatever concept you have, there is something that contributes to it. With a good enough set of feats, it's almost impossible to have a concept that you can't build. So long as you are happy with your feat and how it mechanically informs your concept, why should the fact that you didn't take 20 or 200 feats bother you?

I believe that the answer to the question in your last sentence is that your third sentence isn't true. Holy crap is it not true. "With a good enough set of feats, it's almost impossible to have a concept that you can't build"? The degree to which I disagree with this is staggering.

There are many, many character concepts that feats can't build - and neither can character classes, for that matter - with the sole caveat that "build" is understood to mean "build effectively" (as in, they're not a combination of disparate abilities that add up to little).

I once came up with a character concept that was a character who was haunted by an evil spirit - essentially an incorporeal familiar - that was trying to push him towards doing evil. It needed to have stats, since it routinely killed or drove off potential allies in his childhood as part of his back-story. The character, however, was not a spellcaster. Rather, he was discovering that the reason he was haunted in the first place is that he has a latent ability to naturally shape and control negative energy...which could make him a powerful force for evil. As such, he practiced unarmed combat to try and learn discipline...with that discipline was slowly unlocking low-level psychic powers (a la a classic Jedi, in the original trilogy).

So, to recap, this character has:

1) a familiar that's essentially connected to him (hence why he doesn't just kill it) but is essentially an NPC
2) unarmed combat skills
3) channel negative energy/rebuke undead (and related abilities)
4) psionic powers
5) is not a spellcaster

Even if you write number one off by just making it an NPC, you're still going to need clerical levels (channeling/rebuking), which have the added problem of spellcasting; psionic levels for the psychic powers, and monk levels for any sort of worthwhile unarmed combat abilities.

Leaving aside how much that compromises the character (spellcasting, a slew of unwanted monk abilities that don't fit the theme), that's something along the lines of three different classes, which don't make for a very playable character. Admittedly, this is more of a class problem than a feat problem, but it underscores just how many different character concepts can't be effectively made under the class/level rules.

No, by say that I saw problems with feat bloat I didn't mean what seems to bother you at all. What I meant is that as the number of feats increases, your ability to understand the abilities of a character at a glance decreases. The short list of feats actually carries a heavy freight of rules. That's the only thing that bothers me with feats. However, it's less of a bother to a player, sense they only have to recall what they can do with their short list of feats for a single character.

That's rules bloat, in other words; what you're talking about isn't in any way specific to feats. Now, I'm certainly sympathetic to that - I find that this is worst in the supplement treadmill ("supplement bloat"? "options bloat"?), as it involves never-ending reams of new material that simply can't be memorized the way the Core material(s) can be. But that's true across the spectra of materials, be they feats, prestige classes, spells, etc.

Other problems that I've seen in 3rd party supplements with feat bloat generally involve things like a) feat tax, in that some feats are so good everyone feels compelled to take them, b) pointless feats, in that they are so weak no one would ever take them, c) unbalanced feats in that some feats strengthen already strong concepts where as others insufficiently support others, d) outright brokenness and poorly considered rules resulting for lack of play testing or foresight in the design. I try to be very careful when adding a feat. I think I've largely avoided all these problems, and in any event, they are all far smaller problems than those resulting from a bloat of classes and prestige classes, templates, and monstrous races as PC's.

We seem to be agreeing with each other here, which is disconcerting.

Knowledge (Local) doesn't have a unique mechanic RAW. It shares the basic mechanic with the overall D20 mechanic the game is rooted in. When you remove a standard mechanic and replace it with a specialized one, the net result is not the same.

It is similar, but it isn't the same. Instead Speak Language has its own unique mechanic, and now Knowledge (Local) does as well. And for that matter, so do Run and Porter (my own homebrew skills). But it bugs the heck out of me and if I could think of a better way, I would.

Sometimes similar is close enough; it's also not quite enough to presume that just because something is a "new mechanic" it's necessarily bad - it's not that hard to grok that "1 point here is a +15, no further points can be added." Sometimes the addition is so light that it's only adding to the bloat in the most technical sense.

Rules bloat introduced in 3.5.

That's not specific enough: how is a "skill stunt" different from a "skill check"? Because unless you're using them as synonyms, the former doesn't really apply where the revised Knowledge (local) is concerned.

With respect to Know (Local) 3.5 cleaned up things compared to 3.0, but it still left a lot of ambiguity. It seems like your ok with the ambiguity.

You're moving the goalposts, here. It's not about ambiguity in where they apply, it's about the potential for thematic overlap.

Suppose I want to know about the ancient past, the world's equivalent to the events of the Trojan War, and I happen to be in Sparta (or its equivalent). Do I roll against Knowledge (History) to learn the cities history, or against Knowledge (Religion) because the events have passed into an age of myth and concern stories of the gods, or Knowledge (Local) because it involves legends of the city's founders? Suppose I want to know who the king of the city is. Do I roll against Knowledge (Geography) to learn about the people living in the land, or against Knowledge (Nobility & Heraldry) because it involves royalty, or against Knowledge (Local) because it is about inhabitants? Your answer just seems to be, "Shrug, just let them roll." There is nothing wrong with that, but it works in a small way against the idea that skills are valuable.

You're tragically misguided if you think that's my answer. My answer regarding the Trojan War would be "You roll Knowledge (history) because you want to know about a historical event. The other ways of looking about it are interesting, but don't apply." If you want to know who the king is, you roll Knowledge (nobility and royalty) because that's the skill that deals with knowing about, you know, nobility and royalty.

What's ironic here is that you're actually the one who's okay with ambiguity, because you're introducing it where I don't see any at all. In other words, you're creating a comparative devaluation of skills, and then bemoaning that they're not more valuable. This is something I talked about in my previous post - the one you ostensibly responded to - where I said that some people take that position that different skills can be used for the same check, and that I didn't care for that.

If you see ambiguity there, it's because you're allowing it in. Even if you think it's unclear which skill would apply, just make a decision and stick to it. Problem solved.

There is a 'simple' solution to that as a game designer/game master. Don't write into your game feats that are thematically weak. A feat can be poorly suited to the particular game being played but that's not the same thing. Gaining a natural climb speed in trees might not be much good to you in a city game, but might be quite worthwhile in a game set largely in the jungle. As long as a feat helps draw spotlight to you and helps you do what you want to do with your character, it's not a bad feat. If there is such a thing as a feat that fits a theme but adds too little to a character, the feat should be strengthened.

This would be a good idea if it weren't so subjective as to have very little practical value. Saying that the answer is to "just do it better" when it comes to game rules is something that sounds great, but breaks down when you have to deal with details.

This sentence is one of those that told me my game has evolved quite radically away from the main 3.X family. In my game, feats largely serve to distinguish you in a narrow field above (or sometimes below) what would be expected for your level, while skills largely serve to open up possibilities. So in that sense, however much 3.X might be working against me, my own game isn't. Let me give you an example:

You don't need a feat in my game to tell lies so slick that even magic can miss them. You just have to be good at the Bluff skill. You don't need a feat to disarm a character at range with a whip; you just need to be proficient with a whip.

That's a nice house rule, but it's still just a house rule. Personally, I don't see how granting everyone the abilities of myriad feats for free necessarily makes things better. That might, I suppose, solve some problems with opportunity costs, but it's going to create its own set of difficulties.

I am always looking for opportunities to move abilities opened up by feats into simple uses of a skill so that simply being skillful at something allows you to do much or all of what you might otherwise be only able to do with many feats. And I'm always looking for ways to rewrite powers so that they are dependent on skills.

If that works for you, then more power to you. I see that as treating a symptom without addressing the underlying cause, however, which is the restrictive nature of the class/level method of building characters.

And what you called 'jumbled' looking at my off the top of my head attempt at making a feat to theme, I call being broadly useful. It ensures that if you take a feat suited to your character, you'll probably have many opportunities to employ it. Ultimately feats have to be measured against spells. You don't, or rather I think you shouldn't, look at numerous spells and complain of 'spell bloat' creating opportunity costs, or at a spell description that allows many uses and options and say 'that's jumbled'.

Notice that I said that something is jumbled when it has unrelated themes united under one mechanic. A skill check that can tell you general information about any given location, and tells you what sorts of damage a troll can't regenerate? That's a jumbled mechanic. Likewise, you absolutely look at spells and complain about spell bloat. That's part and parcel of the issue with "linear fighters, quadratic wizards" that has been coming up for years.
 
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