D&D 5E Discrepancy in Spell Saving Throws in Playtest Rules?

[machineelf]

This week I started running a Next game, and I've been going through the latest public playtest rules. I noticed that in the DM guidelines it says that the DC to resist one of your spells is 10 + the magic ability modifier. But when you look at the classes section it says that it is 8 + the magic ability modifier? Does anyone know which it is?

It seems to me that if it is 8, then it means that in the early levels it is pretty easy for enemies to resist a lot of your spells, but that it becomes a lot more reasonable toward the mid and higher levels. If it is 10, then it seems to me that you are reasonably powerful at early levels, but may perhaps become almost overpowered at the higher levels. But ultimately I would like to play it according to the correct playtest rule for the time being. However it seems to be clearly different in two sections.

 

[Mistwell]

It's supposed to be 8+. They made that change between packages.

 

[machineelf]

Thanks! I was looking at the package that came with Scourge of the Sword Coast. I hope they updated it because if not they have the conflicting numbers there.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

It's 8 + ability modifier + proficiency modifier (when you're wielding the proper implement).

 

[ren1999]

I'm looking at the same characters.

When you look at the description for the Cantrip Ray of Frost, it tells you to make an attack roll but it doesn't tell
you what the character's proficiency bonus is. Nor does it tell you you're attacking the target ac or another ability.

I'm also looking at the Gnome Druid and it says 8+the proficiency bonus, again it doesn't tell you what the Gnome's proficiency bonus is.

I'll stop right there and just say, these characters were generated but nobody actually played the characters to note these technical writing mistakes.

If these kind of mistakes make it into the released summer products, it will kill the game on arrival.

There are two options. Pay very good editors to find mistakes. Or stop smoking on the job.

This is tough love. It is not meant to hurt anybody's feelings.

 

[machineelf]

I'm looking at the same characters.

When you look at the description for the Cantrip Ray of Frost, it tells you to make an attack roll but it doesn't tell
you what the character's proficiency bonus is. Nor does it tell you you're attacking the target ac or another ability.

I'm also looking at the Gnome Druid and it says 8+the proficiency bonus, again it doesn't tell you what the Gnome's proficiency bonus is.

I'll stop right there and just say, these characters were generated but nobody actually played the characters to note these technical writing mistakes.

If these kind of mistakes make it into the released summer products, it will kill the game on arrival.

There are two options. Pay very good editors to find mistakes. Or stop smoking on the job.

This is tough love. It is not meant to hurt anybody's feelings.

I've figured out, after pouring over all the rules, that the way spells work is that the caster sets the DC, and it's up to the creature being hit to roll a saving throw to resist. If they are successful on a saving throw they usually take half damage instead of full damage. So you can think of it like the caster always hits, but the creature being hit has a chance to resist half of the damage.

The proficiency bonus is the same proficiency number used for skills. It's just that the caster only applies the proficiency when he/she is wielding their particular focus weapon (holy symbol for clerics, wooden staff for druids, musical instrument for bards, etc.)

So the rules I have specify all of that, it's just that it's not always in the same convenient place in the rules. Hopefully they will organize it a bit better in the final books.

I have to admit I do like the idea behind the way they've done magical casting, with the caster setting the DC and the half damage on a creature's saving throw. It creates a situation where low level casters are more often than not having their spells resisted and only doing half damage, but once they get to the mid levels and above they are more often than not hitting for full damage.

It also creates this nice, easy to remember set DC for a caster that only goes up when their proficiency modifier goes up (or they increase their attributes). The only thing you have to make sure to check is which attribute needs to be used for a creature's saving throw.

For example: A mage's magic ability is intelligence. Let's say that a level 1 mage has a +2 intelligence modifier. That means the mage has the base score of 8 and then adds 2 to that, to make a DC of 10. But then you also add the +1 proficiency modifier when the mage is casting using his wand or whatever magical implement he is using. So it bumps the DC to 11. So that's still a low DC, but he's still doing half damage when a creature is successful on a saving throw. But when the mage gets up to, say level 10 with a +3 (or is it +4?) proficiency bonus, now all of a sudden the DC is 13. And when you factor in that a around level 5 or so he gets to select an ability score and add 2 to it (so let's say he boosts up his intelligence), giving him an extra +1 to the modifier, now the DC is 14.

So you can see how by the mid levels they are setting a moderate spell DC, and by the higher levels like 15+, they should be setting a DC around 17 or 18 or higher. The math seems to work out and I like it.

 

[Mistwell]

Yeah proficiency bonus is a unified system. Same number for skills, tools, spell DCs, to-hit with a weapon, etc..Only thing it does not apply to is armor class, and they tried to link it there at one point but backed off that idea.

And it is level-based, not class based. So multi-classing doesn't impact it in any way.

 

[pemerton]

it tells you to make an attack roll but it doesn't tell
you <snippage> [if] you're attacking the target ac or another ability.

I thought attacks were against AC by definition. There are no other abilities to roll attacks against.

 

[machineelf]

I thought attacks were against AC by definition. There are no other abilities to roll attacks against.

In next, melee and non-magic ranged attacks are against AC. But magic is a little different. You use an attribute to make a saving roll to resist the spell. So for example, if it's a fireball, you roll using your dex modifier to try to make a saving throw to resist. If it's more of a mental attack, you might roll using your intel or wisdom modifier to make a saving throw to resist. Etc.

 

[pemerton]

In next, melee and non-magic ranged attacks are against AC. But magic is a little different. You use an attribute to make a saving roll to resist the spell.

But in that case, with the definitional construction of the rules, it is not an attack. (How to Play, p 19 on "Attack Basics" and "Attack Rolls" compared to p 28 on "Saving Throws".)