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Need help designing a deity that isn't a total ripoff of Dibella from Elder Scrolls

...Judeo-Christian? Where are you getting that from? Also, I don't quite understand why you mention knowledge of science and technology.

Hmmm.... I'm not sure I can actually explain myself in detail without violating board rules. It's related however to my comment about not believing that things are arbitrary. That things have reasons which are understandable in context. Basically I'm saying that the particular set of mores you are expressing in DiBella, in conjunction with your desire to have her seen as a 'good' goddess is not an arbitrary set of ideas and desires. I really would have thought however that the comment about birth control would have had some resonance, seeing how often the 'sexual revolution' is linked to the development of convenient and effective birth control. As far as the technology goes, I'm just extending that line of thought, and connecting other revolutions in sexual mores to earlier technological developments.

In other words, magic is an application of science, and wizards are basically applied scientists, albeit with an entirely different set of tools.

The same is true in my homebrew. I really think that this is almost an inevitable conclusion of the D&D magic system. You could change this trope, but only by radically reinventing the D&D magical system in ways that made it less reliable and more frightening. After examining that possibility, I decided that it would be too difficult to run that as a game and probably not that fun for someone that wanted to be a wizard.

As far as your setting information about knowledge goes, I really like it.

The "arbitrary" aspect is because Im-Tinar sees certain folkways of society regarding love, sex, and decency as, at best, not serving a purpose. She could, for example, understand why someone would want to wear clothing to serve the purpose of protection or to keep "floppy bits" from uncomfortably flopping around at the slightest movement. What she doesn't understand is why not wearing clothing is considered indecent and made illegal for the purposes of decency, and she and her followers only reluctantly obey such decency laws so that they don't suffer the wrath of the rest of society.

So do the people of your culture not have reasons for wearing clothes and having decency laws? Note that medieval or ancient decency wasn't necessarily the same as ours - it wasn't that unusual for French women to go topless while working in the fields for example. And of course almost all stone age cultures don't consider exposure of the female breast to be erotic. To my mind it is an important question as to whether Im-Tinar considers whatever reasons that the culture may have for thinking exposing oneself is indecent or immodest are arbitrary, as if they sort of flipped a coin and said "Coin says flesh should be covered", or whether she actually considers them wrong. For example, suppose the reasoning is, "We don't want anyone to feel ashamed by comparison to one far prettier than they are. We don't want people to be judged primarily on the basis of physical attributes. We would like to have a society were women can travel unaccompanied by men and still feel safe, as opposed to the [Greek] society where women have to be protected from inspiring eros in men." Would Im-Tinar consider this arbitrary, or would she consider it wrong?

While it would seem lazy on my part, I'm actually considering having there be separate words for those separate types of love in the Parodeshi language simply because I can't think of any other way to deal with this issue. That is, there would be a word meaning what we consider "love for one's family," a word for "selfless caring and giving," and a word for the type of love covered by Im-Tinar's domain. That way, there can still be recognition of those other types of "love" while leaving Im-Tinar's domain intact. Like I said, I myself think it seems lazy, but I can't think of anything else to do about that.

I don't think that is lazy at all. I think that is the opposite of lazy. I think the English language, for all its expressiveness and adaptability, is particularly lazy with regards to words for desire and affection and in particular the word for love.
 

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Hmmm.... I'm not sure I can actually explain myself in detail without violating board rules. It's related however to my comment about not believing that things are arbitrary. That things have reasons which are understandable in context. Basically I'm saying that the particular set of mores you are expressing in DiBella, in conjunction with your desire to have her seen as a 'good' goddess is not an arbitrary set of ideas and desires. I really would have thought however that the comment about birth control would have had some resonance, seeing how often the 'sexual revolution' is linked to the development of convenient and effective birth control. As far as the technology goes, I'm just extending that line of thought, and connecting other revolutions in sexual mores to earlier technological developments.

Ah, I had thought that maybe the "birth control leading to sex revolution" might have related to what you were saying. The thing is, I had not previously mentioned whether or not those or similar technologies and/or related knowledge existed in my game's world.

However, I still don't know where you're getting Judeo-Christian from.

The same is true in my homebrew. I really think that this is almost an inevitable conclusion of the D&D magic system.

I'm glad someone agrees with me on this...

You could change this trope, but only by radically reinventing the D&D magical system in ways that made it less reliable and more frightening.

The game I'm making is actually an entire system build from scratch.

So do the people of your culture not have reasons for wearing clothes and having decency laws? Note that medieval or ancient decency wasn't necessarily the same as ours - it wasn't that unusual for French women to go topless while working in the fields for example. And of course almost all stone age cultures don't consider exposure of the female breast to be erotic. To my mind it is an important question as to whether Im-Tinar considers whatever reasons that the culture may have for thinking exposing oneself is indecent or immodest are arbitrary, as if they sort of flipped a coin and said "Coin says flesh should be covered", or whether she actually considers them wrong. For example, suppose the reasoning is, "We don't want anyone to feel ashamed by comparison to one far prettier than they are. We don't want people to be judged primarily on the basis of physical attributes. We would like to have a society were women can travel unaccompanied by men and still feel safe, as opposed to the [Greek] society where women have to be protected from inspiring eros in men." Would Im-Tinar consider this arbitrary, or would she consider it wrong?

Ah, I hadn't thought of those things. Hm...

Perhaps this doesn't address the ideas of whether or not clothing and decency laws are arbitrary, but the whole "physical beauty" thing does bring up another subject. I was thinking on an on-and-off basis that Im-Tinar's followers might offer services related to physical transformation; if and how that would translate to an actual domain on the part of Im-Tinar herself is questionable, but given her focus on beauty, as well as the "idealization" aspect that has been discussed here, it would make sense that some people would go to her or her followers to try to change their appearance and form, either for the purpose of becoming what they think is beautiful, or because for some other reason (transgender, or even trans-specie?) they are uncomfortable with what their body is. Going back to the discussion of whether or not beauty is subjective, those seeking such services might have some unconventional requests, but they probably wouldn't be denied service based solely on that.

That in itself makes me think that worship of Im-Tinar would be less dogmatic and more personal; Im-Tinar herself would probably have her own standards of what things are "beautiful," but even she would not have those personal standards become part of the religion. She would instead want followers to pursue and appreciate what they think is beautiful or ideal. This could potentially lead to conflict within the following, as opinions would differ and expressions would get more or less intrusive to others... which could then become a plot hook for a campaign!
 

Ah, I had thought that maybe the "birth control leading to sex revolution" might have related to what you were saying. The thing is, I had not previously mentioned whether or not those or similar technologies and/or related knowledge existed in my game's world.

Well, do think about it. It's going to have a major impact on how rational and reasonable you can portray a doctrine of free sexual expression.

However, I still don't know where you're getting Judeo-Christian from.

Let's drop it then. I was using shorthand. I can get there without it.

Let's examine DiBella herself, particularly in her iconic representation as a nude human female, her arms bent sharply at the elbows, reclining backwards, with her hands above her head, and flowers replacing her hands. Well, the first thing that ought to be obvious about this portrait is that this is not the deity of male-female equality. A person whose hands are replaced by flowers is not someone who can do any rough or hard work with her hands. Indeed, I think that it is reasonable to suggest that if you have flowers in place of hands, you can't really do any work at all. You can't hit. You can't grasp. You can't manipulate anything by strength. You are helpless and dependent on others to protect, provide and care for you. Flowers are literal sexual organs. The only thing you are presenting the female form as good for is sex. Moreover, the body posture of back bent backwards, arms bent at the elbows, and hands placed above ones head is the female rape submission posture. So what power is in this deity? Eros. DiBella has the power to inspire eros and desire. The posture that her idols represent is the ideology that a rape victim has power over her rapist, because her eros took control over her attacker and made him act. It is an ideology of sexual power; of sexuality as a tool of control and manipulation.

I don't really know how much of that was conscious by the team that developed the Elder Scrolls, and how much of that was just the result of following their intuition, but I do know that ideology is straight up Aphrodite.

Now, in terms of creating a pantheon, there is nothing wrong with portraying that ideology. Lots of real people have believed in that ideology, and lots of real people today express aspects of that ideology even today. It can even be expressed in a form that is parallel to modern feminist empowerment - for example, in that vein of feminism where women disrobe and talk about taking back their sexuality, they are talking about reclaiming the power of eros. The general ideology something that's possibly worth exploring.

But I think it clear that if you intend to express the deity in a way that is more unequivacably 'good' as most modern players would understand it, you're going to need to embody her in some form other than one of submission with hands replaced by sexual organs. For example, you asserted earlier that as you conceive her she abhors rape, and she disapproves of betrayal. I suggest you either give up on portraying her as unquivacbly 'good', or else you are going to have to make some sort of short list of things she considers 'sins' and which are never acceptable regardless of your personal choices. If that list is to convey 'goodnesss' in both the D&D sense and in the common sense understanding of goodness in modern Western civilization, it's going to have to be guidelines that ensure eros is used in a way that healthy and improves wellbeing for all involved.

The game I'm making is actually an entire system build from scratch.

Good luck. Making something that does what you want it to do is always fun.

I was thinking on an on-and-off basis that Im-Tinar's followers might offer services related to physical transformation; if and how that would translate to an actual domain on the part of Im-Tinar herself is questionable, but given her focus on beauty, as well as the "idealization" aspect that has been discussed here, it would make sense that some people would go to her or her followers to try to change their appearance and form, either for the purpose of becoming what they think is beautiful, or because for some other reason (transgender, or even trans-specie?) they are uncomfortable with what their body is. Going back to the discussion of whether or not beauty is subjective, those seeking such services might have some unconventional requests, but they probably wouldn't be denied service based solely on that.

That seems reasonable given the general ethos involved here. However, if you are to consider Im-Tinar good, it should be clear that some requests - those that don't improve the health and well-being of those being transformed - would be denied. If on the other hand, Im-Tinar is a goddess of Eros who employs slaves as sacred prostitutes in her temples and doesn't consider that 'wrong', then modifying someone to be a more sexual object either against their will or against their interests doesn't necessarily offend her in the slightest. Likewise, if someone comes in and wants to be multilated so that they can be better degraded or otherwise out of feelings of low self-worth, that's fine as well. Indeed, that might even be considered laudable - the recognitiion that ones entire worth is in inspiring eros and in accepting that as a choice might be considered 'correct'.

That in itself makes me think that worship of Im-Tinar would be less dogmatic and more personal;

At some point, complete lack of dogmatism becomes CN - there is no evil, there is no good, there is only self and violition.

Now, honestly, I consider Im-Tinar as CN to be the obvious way to take her, and the way I would take her or something like her as the most interesting edition to my pantheon. The reason for that is that if Im-Tinar is CN, I can have CG, CN, and CE factions and sects, worshipping Im-Tinar without contridiction and that creates a really interesting scenario for the players.

Im-Tinar herself would probably have her own standards of what things are "beautiful,"...

I think you are on one 'correct' track here, depending on where you want to go. However, she doesn't have to have her own standards. If she really is idealized non-dogmatic, and almost by definition deities are idealizations of the things they represent, then its quite possible that Im-Tinar believes everything beautiful and has no standards. She could be both the goddess of beauty and of ugly. Her ultimate doctrine might be everything should inspire eros, and its only the weak and unwise and as of yet not transcendent that fail to see this. If she is non-dogmatic, she probably allows different sects of worshippers to believe that she has a certain particular standard but the deeper mystery would be that there is no standard. She might be worshipped even under multiple names, with the different sects believing that the more extreme sorts are heretical while never understanding that for Im-Tinar there is no heresy, only choice.
 

Well, do think about it. It's going to have a major impact on how rational and reasonable you can portray a doctrine of free sexual expression.

I never said I didn't think about it, either; I was kind of relying on the explanation of knowledge in the game's universe (and how being a powerful wizard, which most gods actually are, requires a lot of scientific knowledge) to imply that those things were, in some way, in place. Then again, I did also say that these types of knowledge are not something commonplace, especially in Parodesh due to the fact that a knowledgeable person doesn't need the deities' help, and thus is a potential threat to the status quo. However, the deities would probably want to at least advise their followers (or even the general public, in the case of a benevolent deity) along the lines of their knowledge, or even simply give the knowledge to high-ranking followers, if it was seen as beneficial to the group/deity.

Let's examine DiBella herself, particularly in her iconic representation as a nude human female, her arms bent sharply at the elbows, reclining backwards, with her hands above her head, and flowers replacing her hands. Well, the first thing that ought to be obvious about this portrait is that this is not the deity of male-female equality. A person whose hands are replaced by flowers is not someone who can do any rough or hard work with her hands. Indeed, I think that it is reasonable to suggest that if you have flowers in place of hands, you can't really do any work at all. You can't hit. You can't grasp. You can't manipulate anything by strength. You are helpless and dependent on others to protect, provide and care for you. Flowers are literal sexual organs. The only thing you are presenting the female form as good for is sex. Moreover, the body posture of back bent backwards, arms bent at the elbows, and hands placed above ones head is the female rape submission posture. So what power is in this deity? Eros. DiBella has the power to inspire eros and desire. The posture that her idols represent is the ideology that a rape victim has power over her rapist, because her eros took control over her attacker and made him act. It is an ideology of sexual power; of sexuality as a tool of control and manipulation.

These implications you are mentioning are all things that I was either unaware of, or didn't think about in terms of connecting the dots...

But I think it clear that if you intend to express the deity in a way that is more unequivacably 'good' as most modern players would understand it, you're going to need to embody her in some form other than one of submission with hands replaced by sexual organs. For example, you asserted earlier that as you conceive her she abhors rape, and she disapproves of betrayal. I suggest you either give up on portraying her as unquivacbly 'good', or else you are going to have to make some sort of short list of things she considers 'sins' and which are never acceptable regardless of your personal choices. If that list is to convey 'goodnesss' in both the D&D sense and in the common sense understanding of goodness in modern Western civilization, it's going to have to be guidelines that ensure eros is used in a way that healthy and improves wellbeing for all involved.

Well, she does have a very short list of sins related to her domain, which, as it exists so far, I have already provided. As far as morality unrelated to the domains of one's preferred deity, of course, followers would probably follow the laws of the rest of society. Since Parodesh is governed, at least at the highest level, directly by the deities, the equivalent of "secular" laws are actually the laws that the deities agreed to uphold, or at least, to not interfere with, in order to maintain society. That said, there are certain granted circumstances (often, though not always, related to a location set aside for this very purpose) in which the laws of an individual deity are upheld instead of society's laws, should they contradict.

Also, when I say "good," I'm not talking strictly in the sense of DnD morality, especially since my system will have an alternative system of various spectra related to values, and even that won't have any mechanical bearing (it'll just be there as a suggestion to help people develop their characters). The way in which Im-Tinar (or, at least, her position as a deity) is "good" translates into DnD as being more along the lines of "neutral" in DnD terms, even if she takes a lot more care to avoid "evil" than most "neutral" characters. However, given the different systems, this is a very rough translation that is guaranteed to have inaccuracies.

That seems reasonable given the general ethos involved here. However, if you are to consider Im-Tinar good, it should be clear that some requests - those that don't improve the health and well-being of those being transformed - would be denied. If on the other hand, Im-Tinar is a goddess of Eros who employs slaves as sacred prostitutes in her temples and doesn't consider that 'wrong', then modifying someone to be a more sexual object either against their will or against their interests doesn't necessarily offend her in the slightest. Likewise, if someone comes in and wants to be multilated so that they can be better degraded or otherwise out of feelings of low self-worth, that's fine as well. Indeed, that might even be considered laudable - the recognitiion that ones entire worth is in inspiring eros and in accepting that as a choice might be considered 'correct'.

I have been trying to think of how she would view "unhealthy" transformation requests... So far, I got nothing, or at least, nothing conclusive.

At some point, complete lack of dogmatism becomes CN - there is no evil, there is no good, there is only self and violition.

Now, honestly, I consider Im-Tinar as CN to be the obvious way to take her, and the way I would take her or something like her as the most interesting edition to my pantheon. The reason for that is that if Im-Tinar is CN, I can have CG, CN, and CE factions and sects, worshipping Im-Tinar without contridiction and that creates a really interesting scenario for the players.

Well, I'm trying to develop the deities in my game as more than just mechanics and plot devices. I'm trying to make them into (somewhat) believable characters, with their own desires and personalities, and their own reasons for being that way. I mean, it only makes sense that they would be like that, considering that my game's definition of a deity is "an immensely powerful entity that grants some of its power in exchange for service or tribute." In order for that to apply in a world where everything works the way it does for a reason, the deities would have to be characters; not only would they need some sort of will to decide on whether or not to grant their followers their power (and thus, they couldn't just be a concept), but also they'd need an explanation of how they obtained their power in the first place.

Of course, there are various things which would cause a being to be unreasonable (and unambiguously evil) in my game, but those are often due to various aberrant conditions.

...and almost by definition deities are idealizations of the things they represent...

In the traditional sense, yes, but as I said, my game has a different definition of "deity." In fact, the deities of Parodesh have little significance in a "cosmic" sense, although certain deities do have limited "cosmic power" (defined in-game as the power used to both create the universe and influence events in the universe, characterized by the limited ability to control or bypass reality in a way reminiscent of a writer's control over a story, and obtained through becoming enlightened to the true nature of reality). They're not even among the most powerful beings in the world, let alone the universe.

...its quite possible that Im-Tinar believes everything beautiful and has no standards. She could be both the goddess of beauty and of ugly. Her ultimate doctrine might be everything should inspire eros, and its only the weak and unwise and as of yet not transcendent that fail to see this.

This is an interesting idea, though I probably wouldn't phrase it as her being "both the goddess of beauty and of ugly." Maybe she wants her followers to try to see the beauty in all things? A monstrously ugly person might demonstrate beauty by having a good personality, and certainly by merely living a "beautifully tragic" story.
 

So... this thread seems to have become inactive... I'm still willing to discuss this topic, and there are still things to discuss, like Im-Tinar's stance on "unhealthy" transformations, or where her sect is on a sliding scale of "personal vs. dogmatic." Even some ideas that seem like pretty good ideas are only tentative conclusions, like the idea of Im-Tinar's domains being love, beauty, and idealization (should they be changed or added to?). And of course, there are things I need help with that haven't been discussed (or, in some cases, even mentioned) at all, like her origins and how her sect ought to be organized.
 

So... this thread seems to have become inactive... I'm still willing to discuss this topic, and there are still things to discuss, like Im-Tinar's stance on "unhealthy" transformations, or where her sect is on a sliding scale of "personal vs. dogmatic." Even some ideas that seem like pretty good ideas are only tentative conclusions, like the idea of Im-Tinar's domains being love, beauty, and idealization (should they be changed or added to?). And of course, there are things I need help with that haven't been discussed (or, in some cases, even mentioned) at all, like her origins and how her sect ought to be organized.
Having read through the thread, I'm interested in offering some advice, but really I have no idea where to start. I do think that frogimus' remark is spot on - you are recreating a goddess I recognize as Aphrodite, and no one has a copyright on her.

Aphrodite was generally worshipped by hetaerae, and unless your adventurers are going to be courtesans (or perhaps artists, poets, or dancers who might have some connection to the Poruqe), they would likely have little reason to call on her or visit her temple. Ishtar (a sort of Babylonian cognate) was selfish and bad tempered, and if you wanted your goddess to be similarly wrathful, adventurers might have some incentive to appease her, that they might avert her displeasure!

If you're wanting this goddess to have wide influence, this apparent narrowness could indicate that she needs to be the goddess of something more than just sex and love; on the other hand, wikipedia verifies that "Aphrodite was associated with, and often depicted with, the sea, dolphins, doves, swans, pomegranites, sceptres, apples, myrtle, rose trees, lime trees, clams, scallop shells, and pearls." So obviously stories involving your goddess could associate her with all manner of other situations or items; maybe she could be called upon to keep a rope from breaking if she once tied up a lover, say.

Hope this helps!
 

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