Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

[Hussar]

Two words: adamantine weapon.

ROTFLMAO - Every time we have threads like this, I get told that wizards will never have any scrolls or wands, but, every rogue has an adamantine weapon? 3000 gp for a base adamantine weapon buys a hell of a lot of scrolls for the wizard. But, hey, every campaign has freely available adamantine weapons at every smithy, but, will never, ever have a magic shop.

So, just to get this straight, the rogue should be assumed to have an adamantine weapon, but, despite the fact that wizards get scribe scroll for free and can leave slots open, as per the rules, they will never have either one.

 

[Hussar]

Generally not true; the closest thing to an exceptio would be Knock, but that's a small niche. An invisible wizard is not as generally as stealthy as a hidden rogue for instance, nor is charming someone as beneficial as actually winning them over with a Bluff or Diplo.

Conversely, a rogue playing wizard can also sometimes be better than the wizard. A wand of Ray of Frost (or any ray spell of choice) makes for some pretty devastating sneak attacks; wizards can't do that kind of damage with those spells. A rogue can shoot a fireball with himself in the center and ignore the damage by evading it. A rogue is much better at negotiating with creatures recruited through calling spells. An invisible rogue is much sneakier than an invisible wizard. The list goes on.

The rogue also can use healing wands at the same time; healing is not impossible but is rather a challenge for the arcane casters.

You have no problem with the idea that to make non-casters comparable to casters, you are turning the non-caster into a caster?

And you don't see why some people have an issue with this?

 

[Ahnehnois]

You have no problem with the idea that to make non-casters comparable to casters, you are turning the non-caster into a caster?

I think you have PF confused with 4e. A tool user isn't quite the same as a spellcaster.

And you don't see why some people have an issue with this?

I can see why, but as I said it's one of those "inherent to D&D" kind of things. Would we want a version of Pathfinder to remove the idea of accumulating large amounts of magical treasure that give you various useful abilities? I don't know about that.

Of course, even if you took the existing game and stripped out all the magic items, it wouldn't suddenly make the spellcasters kings of the world. They'd be more special, sure, but they'd also be largely defenseless. A large part of their power comes from items as well, just not quite as large.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think you have PF confused with 4e. A tool user isn't quite the same as a spellcaster.

wow... and making a tool user have a wide range of speclist abilities isn't a spell caster either.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Generally not true; the closest thing to an exceptio would be Knock, but that's a small niche. An invisible wizard is not as generally as stealthy as a hidden rogue for instance, nor is charming someone as beneficial as actually winning them over with a Bluff or Diplo.

Knock is one way for a Wizard to bypass a locked door. Invisible flying Wizards are incredibly difficult to find. And Charming someone can be as beneficial as Diplomacy/Bluff, especially if you only need to have them won over for a minute or two(like to, say, open a locked door from the other side).

Conversely, a rogue playing wizard can also sometimes be better than the wizard.

I almost stopped reading here, partly because I had to clean the iced tea off my keyboard after I spit it out laughing.

A wand of Ray of Frost (or any ray spell of choice) makes for some pretty devastating sneak attacks; wizards can't do that kind of damage with those spells.

Probably not, but damage-focused Wizards are the worst type of Wizard because hit point damage is the least efficient way to win a fight.

The rogue also can use healing wands at the same time; healing is not impossible but is rather a challenge for the arcane casters.

Not really. UMD is stupidly easy to get as a class skill, and there's a trait that lets them make it key of INT instead of CHA, so if anything the Wizard's better at using magic items than the Rogue is now.

 

[Ahnehnois]

And Charming someone can be as beneficial as Diplomacy/Bluff, especially if you only need to have them won over for a minute or two(like to, say, open a locked door from the other side).

Pretty big if.

I almost stopped reading here, partly because I had to clean the iced tea off my keyboard after I spit it out laughing.

Guess that's what happens when you learn something.

Probably not, but damage-focused Wizards are the worst type of Wizard because hit point damage is the least efficient way to win a fight.

And yet, often the only way. But so what?

All things being equal, a rogue does more damage, has more hit points, is stealthier, more perceptive, has better AC and saves, is more persuasive, and has the whole traps things going. He's better at the things he's supposed to be better at. Rogues are much better at avoiding, preventing, and anticipating fights and other threats. That's what they're for.

Not really. UMD is stupidly easy to get as a class skill, and there's a trait that lets them make it key of INT instead of CHA, so if anything the Wizard's better at using magic items than the Rogue is now.

So...everyone's equal then. It's simply a question of who can utilize their resources more effectively. Which might be a druid, maybe a cleric or sorcerer if everything breaks right, but definitely not a wizard.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Probably not, but damage-focused Wizards are the worst type of Wizard because hit point damage is the least efficient way to win a fight

a wand with the right touch spell can be very powerful... but not full caster powerful.

Not really. UMD is stupidly easy to get as a class skill, and there's a trait that lets them make it key of INT instead of CHA, so if anything the Wizard's better at using magic items than the Rogue is now.

even if you discount the Int trick or weather it is a class skill or not, letts look.

a wizard can have an equal or greater cha anyway... the wizard can put 1 rank per level, so the rogue has it at best 3pts advantage.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

So...everyone's equal then. It's simply a question of who can utilize their resources more effectively. Which might be a druid, maybe a cleric or sorcerer if everything breaks right, but definitely not a wizard.

Your rationale for the Rogue being effect is being able to play pretend-Wizard, and the Wizard itself can play pretend-Wizard(ie, use of scrolls and wands) far better than the Rogue can.

And again, Rogue doing damage was never in question, I just never brought it up because damage is the worst way to go about winning an encounter when you can just drop a save-or-die/suck spell and just win the encounter right there.

 

[Ace]

I think Pathfinder would benefit muchly from some low magic support. Ironically the only edition of D&D that did this well was arguably the highest magic one, 4th. The optional DMG 2 rules for low magic and various other power ups (training, benefits etc) were very good.

 

[Hussar]

On the whole caster balance thing:

Take the following test - choose an 11th level Pathfinder module. Doesn't matter which one. Pathfinder core only, no splats.

Now, run three groups of 4 11th level PC's through it.

Group 1 - Control Group - Fighter, Cleric, Wizard and Rogue. That's the baseline that the game was made for.

Group 2 - Caster Group - Fighter, Cleric, Wizard and replace Rogue with either a second cleric or second wizard.

Group 3 - Single Caster Group - Fighter, replace Cleric with second Rogue, Wizard, Rogue.

All characters have appropriate wealth by level and you can choose whatever equipment from Pathfinder Core that fits within that budget. No restrictions, so long as it's core. Standard point buy values for character stats, just to make things even.

Which of these three groups would have the easiest time in the module? The most difficult? Which would take the most time to complete the adventure in game time?

If the classes are, as is claimed, all balanced, then all three groups should have equal difficulties. No group should be significantly faster or slower than another.

Does anyone honestly believe that to be true?