Pathfinder 1E So what do you think is wrong with Pathfinder? Post your problems and we will fix it.

[Imaro]

So to sum up... a power is found that is marked martial and allows one to do things that are impossible to explain without magic in certain situations... and the answer then becomes... I don't let them use it like that then... so you're making the power non-magical, even though it fits the criteria as written... got it.

EDIT: Which I find is made even more ironic since the argument against regeneration being magic is a strict reading and adherence to the game rules...

 

[herrozerro]

So to sum up... a power is found that is marked martial and allows one to do things that are impossible to explain without magic in certain situations... and the answer then becomes... I don't let them use it like that then... so you're making the power non-magical, even though it fits the criteria as written... got it.

EDIT: Which I find is made even more ironic since the argument against regeneration being magic is a strict reading and adherence to the game rules...

I think it's your insistence in calling it magic. Supernatural or extraordinary is well within the realm of martial. It's just not magic.

 

[Imaro]

I think it's your insistence in calling it magic. Supernatural or extraordinary is well within the realm of martial. It's just not magic.

Only the definition of martial power in 4e, explains these things away as magic just not of the traditional sort...


EDIT: In other words you tell me it's not spells or rituals... sure. You tell me it's not prayers...ok. But you tell me it's not a form of magic... not buying it.

 

[herrozerro]

Only the definition of martial power in 4e, explains these things away as magic just not of the traditional sort...


EDIT: In other words you tell me it's not spells or rituals... sure. You tell me it's not prayers...ok. But you tell me it's not a form of magic... not buying it.

Well as you said before neither of us are going to convince the other. We are just talking past each other now.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

So to sum up... a power is found that is marked martial and allows one to do things that are impossible to explain without magic in certain situations

Uh...you mean aside from the times when I gave a perfectly good reason why they'd work?

Besides, 4e itself says the DM is free to veto power use if there's no reasonabl way it could be used.

so you're making the power non-magical, even though it fits the criteria as written... got it.

yes, I call it non-magical because it fits the criteria for being non-magic. I don't see what part of this is difficult.

Which I find is made even more ironic since the argument against regeneration being magic is a strict reading and adherence to the game rules...

Which doesn't contradict anything I've said.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Uh...you mean aside from the times when I gave a perfectly good reason why they'd work?

Besides, 4e itself says the DM is free to veto power use if there's no reasonabl way it could be used.


yes, I call it non-magical because it fits the criteria for being non-magic. I don't see what part of this is difficult.



Which doesn't contradict anything I've said.

Let's break this down shall we?

The power initiates whenever you reach bloodied. I'm sure we can all guess what the word "bloodied" involves, seeing as it has the word "blood" in it. Now, Trolls have regeneration which can be stopped using fire. This means that the meat is actually repairing itself, like it always has, unless a specific type of damage is used. Trolls usually "shake off" most damage because of their Regeneration ability.

When a fighter uses that ability and gains Regeneration, does he lose that damage he has taken when the fight is over? No. Is HP 100% non meat? No. Does this ability heal even the parts of HP that are meat? Yes. If they made the power only work when you are not bloodied then maybe I could see it as shaking off fatigue or what not, but clearly it doesn't work that way.

 

[herrozerro]

Let's break this down shall we?

The power initiates whenever you reach bloodied. I'm sure we can all guess what the word "bloodied" involves, seeing as it has the word "blood" in it. Now, Trolls have regeneration which can be stopped using fire. This means that the meat is actually repairing itself, like it always has, unless a specific type of damage is used. Trolls usually "shake off" most damage because of their Regeneration ability.

When a fighter uses that ability and gains Regeneration, does he lose that damage he has taken when the fight is over? No. Is HP 100% non meat? No. Does this ability heal even the parts of HP that are meat? Yes. If they made the power only work when you are not bloodied then maybe I could see it as shaking off fatigue or what not, but clearly it doesn't work that way.

You are falling into the same trap. Troll regeneration is not the same as fighter regeneration, otherwise it would be stopped by fire as well. In fact regeneration in 4e is just a special kind of HP regeneration, where you regain HP at the start of your turn. There is no mention on how the regeneration happens, just that HP is regained.

So TLR, regeneration at least as far as 4e is concerned, is just an effect to recover HP at the beginning of your turn, the flavor of what it is depends on the Power Source, power, flavor.

 

[andreww]

I just plain dislike this "spellcasters are overpowered" vibe mainly because it unjustifiedly accuses all casters of being broken overpowered niche breakers. In principle I don't dispute your claims, mainly because I'm far fra away from playing that way or hanging out with people who do. But I do dispute your blanket statement "all casters are overpowered" as a needless overgeneralization. Case in point, replace wizard with sorcerer, can you break the game in the same way? The simple answer is no. A sorcerer who knows knock, and invisibility, and many of the 'rogue replacing spells' is not intending to make the rogue meaningless, is intending to act as a rogue and has little spells known left to attempt to replace the fighter. On top of that a sorcerer lacks the "Me smart, game smash" pretext wizard players use to acts as munchkins. And a similar thing applies for the oracle and bard -heck bards lost a lot of power in the transition to pf-

Actually as far as sorcerers and oracles go the answer is yes, yes you can. Between the human favoured class bonus for extra spells known, pages of spell knowledge, mnemonic vestment/scrolls razmirian priest and paragon surge you can have access to pretty much any spell in the game.

Also a lot of the added caster power comes from new feats such as persistent spell, dazing spell and spell perfection. If you aren't breaking PF games with a full caster then its pretty much because you are either unaware of the available options or choosing not too.

 

[billd91]

Also a lot of the added caster power comes from new feats such as persistent spell, dazing spell and spell perfection. If you aren't breaking PF games with a full caster then its pretty much because you are either unaware of the available options or choosing not too.

Conversely, if you are breaking the game as a full caster, you are choosing to do so.

 

[MoonSong]

Actually as far as sorcerers and oracles go the answer is yes, yes you can. Between the human favoured class bonus for extra spells known, pages of spell knowledge, mnemonic vestment/scrolls razmirian priest and paragon surge you can have access to pretty much any spell in the game.

Also a lot of the added caster power comes from new feats such as persistent spell, dazing spell and spell perfection. If you aren't breaking PF games with a full caster then its pretty much because you are either unaware of the available options or choosing not too.

These are just strawmanning, I have yet to see a single working build that is as broken as a core-only wizard. On their own all these aren't as unbalancing as you make it seem.

• Favored class bonus.- until you reach 4th level, all these are good for are to get extra cantrips (and you can never get 9th level spells out of the deal). Not to mention it locks down your race on human.
• Pages of spell knowledge.- talk about an awfully specific magic item with limited appeal, at low levels a single page consumes yhe practical totality of you alotted wealth by level. This is also an item you cannot craft yoursef (because otherwise you wouldn't need it), you need to somehow convince a wizard or another sorcerer to do it for you. If you get tons and tons of these, the DM is the only one to blame. Even at 20th level you can only afford ten 9th level pages, hardly every spell under the sun. (and that leaves out thes fancy bracers of armor and cloaks of resistance, not to mention the scaling crown of charisma).
• Mnemonic vestments.- To be fair, this one is overpowered and underpriced, yet it only works ONCE PER DAY, and where are you getting those many scrolls? you are spending all of your money on pages of spell knowledge.
• Razmiran Priest.- Awfully speciffic prestige class, camapaign specific, you cannot be good, requires two feats that are worthless to you as a sorcerer, and it costs you three caster levels to get a worse cure wounds. Or sorry, you meant that archetype that replaces your bloodline with some cleric spells and an unreliable charge saving option?
• Paragon surge.- Sorry I tought you were human to get three more cantrips at first level, (sorry for the snark). Either you get the extra spells from being human of the free feat a few minutes per day. You cannot get both.
• Spell perfection.- This is an specializing feat, you pick a single spell to affect -thus the opposite of niche breaking-. Not to mention you can only pick it once.

Finally give me one in-game reason every sorcerer would desire to act like the quintessential batman wizard. Where is this "My character is a genius, ergo he should be attempting to break the game" by default justification?.

Show me one sorcerer who can act as a niche-breaking wizard without specializing in any single niche. It is way easier to just pick a niche and run with it than attempt to do every single one without specializing. (Even if you succeed that would be an awfully speciffic build among many possible ones, instead of it happening "by accident" or "by default". If you have to go out of the way to break the game with a sorcerer, is the class really broken or is the player the one who breaks everything?)