The Niche Protection Poll

[Starfox]

I feel we're discussing apples and pears here - a class niche is different for a character niche in a party.

IMO, party niche is much more interesting that class niche. But the discussion here is more about class niches, which is how this has traditionally been handled in DnD.

One reason I dislike class niches is because it make certain classes mandatory. The worst offender here is the healer - a party cannot function without a healer, traditionally the only healer is a cleric, and thus every party needs a cleric. As cleric is a genuinely unpopular class around here, this is a problem. Opening the healer niche up to more classes helps alleviate this, opening it up to anyone with a decent Use Magic Device does so further. When you do this, healer becomes a party niche instead of a class niche. Suddenly many characters have the option to learn how to heal, but some will still be better at it. If there is a cleric in the party, it is usually pure waste for the bard to learn hearing spells (known spells being a very limited resource), but having a wand of cure light wounds might still be a good investment.

 

[1of3]

You say "should". You might certainly have that opinion. It is not how DnD works. For this to work, there cannot be choice within character classes. There can also only be very few classes, because otherwise you cannot determine niches a priori.

You might want to be the Cleric the best "healer". But what does that even mean? The most eficient healer out of comat is the Binder. The best person to revive the dead is a Psion. The best healer in combat is one who can spontaneously cast Heal at range.

 

[Hussar]

But, healer isn't the niche is it? A cleric's niche is divine caster. Granted healing might be part of that, but that's not a cleric's niche IMO. Or certainly not all of it.

 

[sheadunne]

Using 3x as a base, you can spread "healing" around, but the means and ability of that healing would differ based on class. Here's an example.

Cleric - Cure line of spells (fast and powerful)
Druid - Vigor line of spells (slow and powerful)
Paladin - Lay on hands ability (fast and weak)
Bard - Some sort of singing ability (slow and weak)

Four different means of healing. No other class would get any of these particular abilities and none of the ability really replaces any particular classes ability. No other class gets cure spells. No other class gets Vigor.

 

[1of3]

But, healer isn't the niche is it? A cleric's niche is divine caster. Granted healing might be part of that, but that's not a cleric's niche IMO. Or certainly not all of it.

In that case you have a tautology: A cleric is a cleric. That doesn't answer anything.


@sheadunne : Yes. Uphtread, someone compared the Cleric and Artificer in 4e who behave in such a similar manner. Both do the healing but there are certain conditions where one is preferable.

 

[Starfox]

I mentioned the cleric as the traditional healer. By that I mean pre 3E. It was an example to illustrate the difference between class and role niche protection. Sure, there are now many classes that can heal - which I think is a good thing.

 

[Lanefan]

That is apparently what most people here are trying to use. We see the following problems:

It doesn't quite work, if there is customisation besides or within classes. If my class could learn a spell but my character didn't, going by your definition, I play the game wrong, because I am supppsed to cast that spell by virtue of character class.

Uh...wha...?

There are dozens of spells out there to (potentially) learn, in all editions of the game. In theory, provided I have the required level and-or stat score, I-as-caster can learn any of them that are allowed to me. That I do or do not for each individual spell has nothing to do with niche and everything to do with a combination of player-as-character choice (do I want the spell?) and random chance (can I get access to it?).

Not quite. Why would such a character join the party? Because another player selected the spell.
There are two reasons for that. One good, one bad. Good it is, when the first player did not really like that spell and would rather do different things.

Bad it is, when the player likes locating objects. You then violated that player's niche.

You're really fine-tuning the character creation process if you select spells based on what others in the party can do. And this assumes you get any choice on what spells you start with: divine casters mostly work off of pre-set spell lists, and arcane casters come in with a random selection of spells which they can then (try to) augment through purchase and-or discovery during play.

I play a character* in a game right now who absolutely loves flying; it's his schtick, as it were. If something will get him in the air, he wants it; and he's busy in his adventuring downtime trying to invent some sort of quasi-mechanical flying machine. But if another character in the party can fly (and at least one can) do I feel that my niche has been violated? Of course not!

* - his day job is Cleric.

Lanefan

 

[Starfox]

and arcane casters come in with a random selection of spells which they can then (try to) augment through purchase and-or discovery during play.

Random arcane spells were last seen in canon in 2E, I believe. You can use them in your game, but they don't really belong in an argument, at least one about recent editions. Sure this is a General D&D thread, but...

Says the guy who 2 posts up said only clerics can heal.

 

[1of3]

You're really fine-tuning the character creation process if you select spells based on what others in the party can do. And this assumes you get any choice on what spells you start with: divine casters mostly work off of pre-set spell lists, and arcane casters come in with a random selection of spells which they can then (try to) augment through purchase and-or discovery during play.

I play a character* in a game right now who absolutely loves flying; it's his schtick, as it were. If something will get him in the air, he wants it; and he's busy in his adventuring downtime trying to invent some sort of quasi-mechanical flying machine. But if another character in the party can fly (and at least one can) do I feel that my niche has been violated? Of course not!

The character I played for the longest time collected magic shields. She had a whole trophy room. My current character maps ancient evils. Those are not nieches. It's not automatically a niche if your character can do, regularly does it or likes doing it.


Even if your cleric can restorate (is that a word?), if for some reason another party member can provide that service better, so you never prepare that spell, that other party member is filling the "removing ability damage and negative levels" niche. We had that particular thing.
*Cleric pulling out a restoration scroll.*
Necromancer: "Don't bother friend, I will attend to their needs."
Cleric: "You can do that!!??"
Necromancer: "Yes."

By that discussion, a niche was established. The "Necromancer" would henceforth bother with restoring people. That cleric, still saving his scroll, might do it at a time, when the "Necromancer" couldn't or was absent etc. That's called backup. The cleric was therefore the Backup Ability Damage and Negative Levels Remover. Now, that's a title.


There are also various tasks that will not become a niche during play. That might happen for practical reasons, because the commodity is so required that a single character cannot cover all the bases. Or it might happen because no character is significantly better at that stuff. Or it might happen because no one really want to do it. So even if a character regularly performs a certain task, we cannot conclude there is a niche.


If a character likes performing the task, has nothing to do with it either. It might be that your character hates adventuring in the first place, but will do so for some reason. You might still have several niches with that character. Neither can we consider hobbies - like inventing flying contraption or collecting magic shields - a niche, because this is not adressing a situation.

 

[Hussar]

In that case you have a tautology: A cleric is a cleric. That doesn't answer anything.


@sheadunne : Yes. Uphtread, someone compared the Cleric and Artificer in 4e who behave in such a similar manner. Both do the healing but there are certain conditions where one is preferable.

Not at all. A cleric is someone who is the strongest divine caster. Other classes might get some access, but only clerics get access to the full range of divine spells. Which means a lot more than hit point restoration I hope.

Their niche is similar to a wizard which has the broadest access to arcane spells.

An artificer and cleric can both heal, it's true. But their approach to healing is very different. And, again, healer is not the sum total of a niche. At least it shouldn't be.