D&D 5E Rapiers and Rogues

[Majoru Oakheart]

Article is from 4+ months ago and they are still editing now, so I will be interested to see if they stuck with it completely.

I agree that Bonus Actions are thing. The question is, which things, exactly?

I just don't think many major changes were made in that time. I also am not entirely sure they'd post the article if they weren't certain they were keeping the change. Either way, you're right...it could change.

However, the main reason the change went into effect in the first place was that people were stacking Extra Attacks, Flurry of Blows, and Two-Weapon Fighting to get a LOT of attacks. I know at least 2 people in my playtest groups tried it as well. Two-Weapon Fighting plus Flurry of Blows was the big issue.

Though, I don't see a particular need to keep the Rogue extra movement as a bonus action. I don't think it's overpowered to allow it to stack with Two-Weapon Fighting. Though, from the article that didn't appear to be their concern. Their issue appeared to be that people's turns were taking too long because of the number of actions they got.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Two-Weapon Fighting plus Flurry of Blows was the big issue.

Rolling one extra d20 to possibly do 1d6 damage (no stat bonus) on a single specific class was a "big issue"? Colour me skeptical!

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Rolling one extra d20 to possibly do 1d6 damage (no stat bonus) on a single specific class was a "big issue"? Colour me skeptical!

Like I said, they appear to be more concerned about how long it took. Plus, there was some ambiguous text about spending a Ki point to make an extra attack. I know in my game, the player read that text as "spend as many points as you want to make an extra attack each". Then, multiclassing into Fighter enabled you to get 2 attacks plus 3 from Flurry of Blows(one extra attack plus 2 Ki points spent) plus one more from TWF(with full stat mod to damage due to Fighter class feature).

So, 6 attacks per round, all of which were 1d6+5. With Flurry of Blows being an Extra Action, it means you now get 3 attacks with an optional 4th instead of 6.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Most easy solution: rogues are proficient with light shields. Gives light shields a use and is a fair trade of damage vs defense.

Another solution, which needs a bit more thought: sneak attack as its own action. So a twf rogue using two swords is better when they can´t sneak attack and a little bit weaker if they can. d8 vs d6 is no great deal in 5e for a rogue whose main damage comes from sneak attacks. He has no way of multiplying his dice, so it is 0-2, average 1 more damage each round, which is more or less nothing at all.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Like I said, they appear to be more concerned about how long it took. Plus, there was some ambiguous text about spending a Ki point to make an extra attack. I know in my game, the player read that text as "spend as many points as you want to make an extra attack each". Then, multiclassing into Fighter enabled you to get 2 attacks plus 3 from Flurry of Blows(one extra attack plus 2 Ki points spent) plus one more from TWF(with full stat mod to damage due to Fighter class feature).

So, 6 attacks per round, all of which were 1d6+5. With Flurry of Blows being an Extra Action, it means you now get 3 attacks with an optional 4th instead of 6.

This doesn't seem to add up.

Flurry gives you 2 attacks + 1 for 1 Chi, and Fighter 5 gives you +1 attack (which applies on any attack action), so that works.

However, adding TWF is not possible unless you have the Dual-Wielder feat, as Unarmed isn't Light (only Finesse for Monks). If do have that and you held a light finesse weapon in your off-hand (a shortsword, say), you could then get 2 + 1 +1 +1 attacks for a total of 5.

Where are you getting the 6th one from?

EDIT: Also this from earlier is wrong:

Plus, it doesn't affect their damage THAT badly. Most rounds they choose between a 75% chance to hit for 1d6+4 plus a 75% chance to hit for 1d6 or losing the extra 1d6. Which means the average damage is either 5.625 or 8.25. If you round, it's either 6 or 8 points.

No, you're not doing the math right, because you're ignoring SA, and whilst SA matters least at L1, it still matters.

EDITED out lengthy discussion because I nearly sent myself to sleep. Suffice to say, 2SS is still better than 1R in most situations, even if you only use the second SS to attack if the first one misses.

 

[Blackwarder]

This will be a great question for today Q&A

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...Dragons-Q-amp-A-Friday-June-6-Question-Thread

Warder

 

[Ruin Explorer]

This will be a great question for today Q&A

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...Dragons-Q-amp-A-Friday-June-6-Question-Thread

Warder

If TWF is in the Basic/Starter, yeah. Flurry can't be asked about as that's PHB.

 

[Plaguescarred]

As per last playtest packet, you cannot use Two-Weapon Fighting and Flurry of Blows at the same time because each use your attack action. You use your action to either do one or the other.

Two-Weapon Fighting: you can attack twice when you take the attack action...

Flurry of Blows: You can use your attack action to make two unarmed attacks...

 

[GMMichael]

So I'm using the latest playtest, and I can't figure out a good reason for a level 1 rogue to use a rapier over twin short swords.

Any body have any thoughts?

Obvious! A rapier is very light, which facilitates quicker escapes, and allows the use of a buckler, shield, or parrying knife.

Twin short swords would be heavier and clunkier, maybe pricier, and require armor for protection, versus a shield.

See above posts for answers involving game mechanics.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

While I favor the TWF rogue archetype myself, we also need rapier rogue as a viable option. The suggestion of adding light shield proficiency to the rogue is a good solution, as I see it. The rapier rogue is definitely trading offense for something else, and a defensive edge is the most obvious answer. Also, having a parrying dagger as an off-hand weapon choice for rapier rogues in the PHB would do no harm.