D&D 5E Starter Set Excerpt 2 -- Equipment

[Plaguescarred]

There is absolutely no reason why there should ever be any doubling up of duplicate abilities through the selection of Race, Background and Class. The game can easily be designed to avoid that. And we just have to hope that they realized that and accomplished it because otherwise it could be seen as a giant waste.

Yes there is a reason for having tools that can also let you add a bonus to a potentionally realated skill that could also do. Not all PCs will have both. A climber's kit should exist and help people doing climb, even if some people may possibly be highly athletic and climb more easily by getting a similar bonus. Similarly, a disguise kit should exist and help people disguise themselves, even if some people may possibly be highly charismatic and deceptive and disguise more easily by getting a similar bonus.

The problem is having game elements such as backgrounds giving both related proficiencies.

 

[MoonSong]

Yes there is a reason for having tools that can also let you add a bonus to a potentionally realated skill that could also do. Not all PCs will have both. A climber's kit should exist and help people doing climb, even if some people may possibly be highly athletic and climb more easily by getting a similar bonus. Similarly, a disguise kit should exist and help people disguise themselves, even if some people may possibly be highly charismatic and deceptive and disguise more easily by getting a similar bonus.

The problem is having game elements such as backgrounds giving both related proficiencies.

Also there is a potential benefit to having both athletics and a climbers kit proficiency. If you are trained in athletics and add a climbers kit you are proficient with, perhaps you could make a convincing case for advantage?

 

[Plaguescarred]

This or perhaps getting to double your proficiency for the checks ?

 

[Plaguescarred]

Here's more info on Phandalin and the Wavechoe Cave from the 2nd edition supplement Volo's Guide To The North for those interested in its lore;

Phandalin
This village is located northeast of Leilon, where the road that runs Leilon, where the road that runs from the High Road to Triboar fades away into a mere trail. The road was largely abandoned long ago after orc attacks from the mountains east of Leilon. The orcs even paid human con-mages to work magic powerful enough to bury the road in some places and hurl down small keeps in others.

Under the leadership of a chieftain called Uruth, the orcs expanded their holdings steadily, building a realm they called Uruth Ukrypt (roughly, Home of Uruth). Its name is echoed today in the Kryptgarden Forest. Too lazy or stupid to support themselves by farming, the orcs soon decimated the huntable game in their realm. They subsequently took to raiding human holdings for food. Some 400 years have passed since then, during which time concerted human attacks on the orcs ended their kingdom and almost drove them from the area entirely. Phandalin had been an important farming center before the orcs conquered it. When they were driven out, the village was left largely in ruins, and it remains so today.

No one lives there now but monsters, though passing hunters and rangers often camp in one of the more secure buildings. It has three deep wells that can still be used.The orc attacks also forced gnomes and dwarves to abandon a mountain delve near Phandalin where they were mining mithral together. This lost lode was called Wavecho Cave because the roll and boom of waves beating on the Sword Coast shore could be heard in the natural cavern. Some dwarves of the North dream Some dwarves of the North dream of returning there, and the gnomes who dwell near Waterdeep consider it their rightful home. Both races constantly search the mountains and the subterranean passages for a way back into Wavecho Cave. Rich stores of mithral and magical items of gnomish and dwarven make were enchanted in Wavecho by human mages allied with the other races. These enchanted items are said to still lie in the caves and delvings. (Note that this is not the same place as the monsterinfested dwarfhold called Southkrypt.)

The orcs attacked Wavecho in force, and in the spell battle between the defending mages and the wizards hired by the orcs, the land was changed, the ceilings of many caverns and chambers collapsed, and the very location of Wavecho was lost. The countryside near and in Phandalin is now best suited to adventurers and those who like to hunt monsters for sport. There have always been rumors of rich treasure lost in the fighting in the area that is just waiting for a lucky or persistent venturer to find it.

 

[Remathilis]

I didn't call them redundant, they are pointless. They should have put in the riding skill, and thievery skill.

The difference is it adds a pointless component to the game, extra layer of complexity. Who cares if bards get 1/2 proficiency bonus to using a deck of cards or a healers kit...would it hurt someones game if they just got 1/2 bonus to gambling skill and medicine skill.

Some skills (Craft, Disable Device, Disguise, Gambling, Medicine, Musical Instrument) are fairly pointless without tools. You can't Craft something without tools (at least nothing with any real skill or proficiency) you can't pick a lock with your fingers, you can't play a piano that isn't there, etc. So it makes sense to be proficient in the tools use rather than have a skill you can't use without the tool anyway. Leave skills for stuff PCs can do without tools, like perception, stealth, climb, sing, or knowledge.

Besides, it works nicely with the skill system anyway.

DM: The Door is locked.
PC: Damn. Can I pick the lock?
DM: Sure, make a Dexterity/Thieves Tools check
PC: Uh, I lost my thieves tools running from the owlbear....
DM: Ok, well, then since you don't have the right tools for the job, make just a Dex check with you makeshift tools.

 

[Li Shenron]

No, it does not. It keep from inflating the skill list, and creates a clear separation between skill (stuff you can try at any time, by yourself) and a tool (stuff you can only try if you have access to the tool).

Plus, tool proficiency often unlocks a new ability that couldn't be conveyed through the skill system because they don't rely on skill checks (such as the ability to craft stuff like potions or poisons).

Inflating the skill list is not necessarily a bad thing. It depends if you like playing a game where the party (as a whole) is good at everything, or a game where the party has some things they're not good at (and have to find another way). In the last playtest packet we had 18 skills, thus for a party of 4 including a Rogue or Bard it may be easy to "cover" all of them. I wouldn't mind a skill list 50% longer, at all.

The separation isn't a bad idea. It's interesting to separate stuff you can try anyway and stuff you can't, but not that different than trained/untrained skills in 3e*. Eventually the separation has a drawback: a mild "siloing" effect, because you have to have 3 skills exactly in a background, and 0-3 tools, but cannot have a PC with 6 skills or another with 6 tools (or 4-2 or 5-1), and there is no special reason why they couldn't.

Furthermore, tools' additional effects could exist even if tools' proficiency was folded together with a skill.

IOW, the current system is a-OK, but I don't think it's especially better nor worse than other possible alternatives. Small pros and small cons...

*edit: ok maybe it is significantly different, but honestly the separation between equipped/unequipped feels even less interesting to me

Yeah... way back when while we were talking about Tools... the big issue was that some Tools were included that duplicated things you already could do with specific skills. Thus those specific Tools were potentially pointless, especially when a player selected a Background that gave both the Tool proficiency *and* the applicable Skill proficiency, or the Class gave a duplicate proficiency.

So for example... the Athletics skill allows you to add your proficiency bonus to any STR checks you make to climb things. The Climber's Kit tool also allows you to add your proficiency bonus to any STR checks you make to climb things. So any Class and Background combination that granted you the Athletics skill *and* the Climber's Kit tool was a loss of something cool for that character. A Background might offer three useful tool proficiencies to do something cool... but if you already also have the applicable Skill, then you now only have two useful tool proficiencies.

Deception and the Disguise kit was another pair of overlapping things-- the Disguise kit allows you to add the proficiency bonus to your CHA checks to pass off pretending to be someone else... while the Deception *also* allows that. So any Class/Background combination that gave you both was a loss of one useful tool.

The only way Tools would be able to avoid this overlap and be a useful addition would be if there was not an applicable Skill that accomplished the same function. So for example... there was no Thievery skill in the playtest. However, there WAS Thieve's Tools. Which means the only way you could ever add your proficiency bonus to your DEX check to pick a lock or disable a trap was if you had proficiency in Thieve's Tool. THAT'S where the concept of the Tool was worthwhile. Because it gave a bonus to a certain check where no Skill ever applied.

So to fix this problem, the game has to do one of two things...

1) ONLY include Tools in the game for things to do that you cannot do using a Skill. So the Climber's kit-- gone. Athletics grants you the ability to climb, and thus the tool is superfluous. The Healer's kit-- gone. Medicine grants you the ability to stabilize someone, and thus the tool is superfluous. The Disguise kit? Gone... unless you were to change the Deception skill to only include verbal deceptions and lying. But any physical deceptions using disguises could only be accomplished (i.e. grant the proficiency bonus) using a Disguise kit. Thieve's Tools? Stays in. There's no Skill for opening locks or disabling traps, thus the Tool has a purpose. The Herbalism Kit? Stays in. There is no Skill that allows you to create potions of healing, thus the Tool has a purpose. Poisoner's Kit? Stays in. There is no Skill that allows you to create poisons, thus the Tool has a purpose.

I totally agree... In general I don't mind overlapping skills, but the climb and disguise cases are more like having skills(tools) that are entirely contained in other skills. They make little sense unless the tools unlock additional benefits. They can easily trick a player, especially a beginner, into picking both the skill and the tool, only to find out later that he has been deceived.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Yes there is a reason for having tools that can also let you add a bonus to a potentionally realated skill that could also do. Not all PCs will have both. A climber's kit should exist and help people doing climb, even if some people may possibly be highly athletic and climb more easily by getting a similar bonus. Similarly, a disguise kit should exist and help people disguise themselves, even if some people may possibly be highly charismatic and deceptive and disguise more easily by getting a similar bonus.

The problem is having game elements such as backgrounds giving both related proficiencies.

Which was my point. The game really should be designed such that you won't get both related proficiencies automatically. My #2 option was the way to do that-- so that if a Background had both Climber's Kit and Athletics in their lists... that the lists had extra options to select from that you didn't have to get both (and thereby double up.)

Although personally... I would much prefer #1-- there be no tools for things you already have skills for. I mean... why a Climber's Kit? What's so special about climbing that they need their own kit but other uses of Athletics don't? Why not a Swimming kit (aka scuba or snorkeling gear?) Why don't they have that to buy? And why is cake make-up so important that they have a special Tool proficiency for it, but a forensics kit doesn't exist for those people who want to make special Perception checks to search but don't have the skill? It seemed like the selected parts of certain skills that got their own special tool proficiency was awfully arbitrary. Climbing, disguise and stabilizing creatures for some reason deserved tools... but all the other things you can do with skills for some reason didn't. That doesn't seem like a logical or reasonable design goal to me.

 

[Hutchimus Prime]

I'm just curious about these "special" WPN Stores that are getting these early.

 

[ccooke]

I totally agree... In general I don't mind overlapping skills, but the climb and disguise cases are more like having skills(tools) that are entirely contained in other skills. They make little sense unless the tools unlock additional benefits. They can easily trick a player, especially a beginner, into picking both the skill and the tool, only to find out later that he has been deceived.

I'd go with a different approach - one which I think has support in the playtest (the wording is unclear in a number of cases (... okay, most cases), but I believe it's been clarified on twitter/L&L - I'll see if I can dig up a reference later). I don't think there's a real overlap here; each tool should provide you with something that you *Cannot* get with the skill alone.

Looking at tools in the playtest:

Artisan's Tools: Clearly distinct from skills

Climber's Kit: This is the one that needs better descriptions more than any other, I think. I believe it's also the one that had some clarification. Hopefully the full rules will come with a clear, concise description of what the kit gives you.

Disguise Kit: While it may appear to overlap with Deception, the key difference with this is that you can prepare a disguise ahead of time, possibly getting someone to help you (to provide advantage) or taking 20 (if that appears in the 5e rules). Once you've made that check, it stays with you until the disguise is removed. If you don't have a disguise kit, then you have to use your deception skill every time you interact.

Healer's Kit: ... This one's really distinct - could be clearer, but I'd be happy if all the tools looked like this:
Using the Medicine skill, you can:
* Stabilise a dying character with a skill check
* Diagnose the (common) illnesses affecting someone
Anyone with a Healer's Kit, whether they have proficiency or not, can expend one use of it as an action to stabilise a dying creature without a skill check. With proficiency, you can use it with the Medicine skill to administer "other sorts of first aid". That would presumably include treating the illnesses you can diagnose with the Medicine skill.

Herbalism Kit: Clearly distinct from skills

Musical Instrument: Clearly distinct from skills. Even if the "instrument" is "Oration"

Navigator's Tools: Another one that needs to be cleared up. I've been ruling that with these, you can automatically know which way is North and can use checks to precisely determine other factors such as how far North or South you are of a known point. Without these tools, I allow Wisdom[Survival] checks to work out where North is and to estimate your location from a map or prior knowledge.

Poisoner's Kit: Clearly distinct

Thieves' Tools: Clearly distinct

Basically, there's a lot of separation already. I just think they should clear up the descriptions and provide better examples so that a tool will always allow you to do something over a skill alone.

 

[Paraxis]

Some skills (Craft, Disable Device, Disguise, Gambling, Medicine, Musical Instrument) are fairly pointless without tools. You can't Craft something without tools (at least nothing with any real skill or proficiency) you can't pick a lock with your fingers, you can't play a piano that isn't there, etc. So it makes sense to be proficient in the tools use rather than have a skill you can't use without the tool anyway. Leave skills for stuff PCs can do without tools, like perception, stealth, climb, sing, or knowledge.

Besides, it works nicely with the skill system anyway.

DM: The Door is locked.
PC: Damn. Can I pick the lock?
DM: Sure, make a Dexterity/Thieves Tools check
PC: Uh, I lost my thieves tools running from the owlbear....
DM: Ok, well, then since you don't have the right tools for the job, make just a Dex check with you makeshift tools.

What makes that any different or better then just having a thievery skill?

If you don't have the right tool you either can't perform the skill or do so with disadvantage.
If you do have the right tool it lets you use your skill or if anyone could could try without the tool, the tool gives you advantage.