D&D 5E Starter Set Character Sheet Revealed!

[Cybit]

Pretty much exactly what I'd expect a rules-lawyer to say! I've rarely heard any rules-lawyer-y argument that didn't involve an appeal to "but it's just what the rules say!" (i.e. "reading-and-understanding").

The idea that such a power can only be used in "combat" seems real sketchy, frankly. Very 4E-esque, some might say, even.

A group can - it's just likely to be violently different from that of another groups, because that's some vague stuff. I mean, you wouldn't even be arguing this if there was a question about it, so let's not pretend that everyone agrees.

This is all very rules-lawyer-y stuff - by your logic, it'd be fine to rest for an hour, go argue with a friendly NPC for a few minutes and try to convince him of something requiring a check, then rest for another hour, and that'd be two short rests, but if you just rested for the same period of time, it'd be one.

Oy vey.

Yes you need better definition on this than that, if you are going to balance around it. It'd be much easier to just balance around an assumption that every hour resting counted as a "short rest".

I'm thinking more and more the best solution will be that Second Wind could simply be reflavored as a boost of adrenaline (I can think of many fencing bouts I've been in where parts of my body that have been hit repeatedly and are sore start working a lot better with a boost of adrenaline, so even for the "all HP damage is physical damage" crowd, it works) that allows Fighters to shrug off wounds dealt in the height of combat, and is thus not usable outside of combat / situations that would purport said adrenaline.

 

[jodyjohnson]

For Second Wind I like Parry as an alternate (but that's a Director Stance mechanic).

Or Temp HP but only usuable when below half like the also spammable Channel Divinity: Restore Health.

That's if you consider 'once per hour that nothing else happens' spammable.


I expect a general magic restriction of one real spell per round like Haste.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm thinking more and more the best solution will be that Second Wind could simply be reflavored as a boost of adrenaline (I can think of many fencing bouts I've been in where parts of my body that have been hit repeatedly and are sore start working a lot better with a boost of adrenaline, so even for the "all HP damage is physical damage" crowd, it works) that allows Fighters to shrug off wounds dealt in the height of combat, and is thus not usable outside of combat / situations that would purport said adrenaline.

Nah. The BEST solution would be to have it burn an HD or something like that (and also factor CON into the mix like an HD, assuming they still do, which is unclear from the character sheet). The trouble with your suggestion is that it encourages getting into pointless one-sided combats just to get to use this, or acting like the dude from Crank... which would be completely hilarious, I admit, but do we really want people acting like the dude from Crank? I mean, HE sure knew how to get an adrenaline rush...

 

[jodyjohnson]

Let's say there are 3 options:

Once between short rests as a Swift action,
1. You regain 1d10+your level in HP (normal max applies).
2. You can Parry and reduce damage by 1d10+your level in HP and possibly turn a hit into a miss. (i.e. Once per encounter when you are hit, you are possibly not hit).
3. You can gain 1d10+your level in Temporary Hit Points, recovering in the short term but these special hit points go away after 5 minutes, you lose them first when you take damage, and you can only gain this effect if your current hit points are below half.

Which of those do you want to explain to a completely new gamer?

For an advanced player wanting to game the system, I suggest option 2 unless the player is also anti-DS mechanics where option 3 becomes the only viable option from the list.

 

[Tony Semana]

This is all very rules-lawyer-y stuff - by your logic, it'd be fine to rest for an hour, go argue with a friendly NPC for a few minutes and try to convince him of something requiring a check, then rest for another hour, and that'd be two short rests, but if you just rested for the same period of time, it'd be one.

Yes, by that account a rules-lawyer-y player may attempt that, AND by my logic, that would be up to the GM to slap that player in the head and say 'you're an idiot' which is what I would do, not to mention a lot of ridicule as to why their character would need a short rest after speaking to a friendly NPC. I guess what I was attempting to provide was a reasonable option, as opposed to a whole style of ignorant play. Lesson learned.

 

[VengerSatanis]

You think you can treat the 3E and 4E crowds as the same thing? Haven't you been reading this board?

Something acceptable to OSR fans would pick up a lot of 4E fans. Not necessarily as a primary game - there's a clash in tones. But one of the key points about 4E is that it's focussed game design that does what it does really well. OSR games may be focussed on something different but you can't doubt the focus - and we already have 4E. In fact the most common request from 4E fans if there were to be a 4E v2 is to get rid of the feats.

"A lot more D&D fans". Frankly, the OSR is tiny. Most other RPG companies would be happy with those numbers - but it's a tiny fraction of D&D fans. Consistently less than 5% of all D&D discussion online is OSR (currently <2% according to the Hot Games tab) - and a lot of old school fans are happy with the games they have. 13th Age on its own gets more discussion. And the OSR was born on blogs and message boards (while most players of pre-3E D&D haven't consistently paid money for their RPGs in a decade and a half).

As for your comments about the character sheet on your blog, I believe there's a lot of nostalgia there. I'd call the D&D Next sheet simpler than one with five separate saving throws, descending armour class, and either THAC0 or a lookup table. And probably a Bend Bars chance. I'd also for that matter call it significantly simpler than the 3.0, 3.5, 4E, or Pathfinder character sheets.

From an OSR perspective, there's less difference between 3e and 4e than you might think.

Focus, like direction, is not destination. The destination matters more than the focus/direction.

A lot of D&D fans appreciate (read, play, run, etc.) OD&D, BEMXI, Rules Cyclopedia, AD&D, and 2nd edition. When I was talking about the OSR, I meant all of them. Not just the fundamentalist shut-ins that only enjoy the wood-grained box or whatever.

True, a lot of that THAC0, bend bars, and descending armor class were unnecessary. Thanks to 3rd edition, a lot of retro-clones improved old school D&D. Didn't say I HATED the character sheet excerpt, just thought it could have been even more user/noob friendly.

VS

 

[Tony Semana]

(I can think of many fencing bouts I've been in where parts of my body that have been hit repeatedly and are sore start working a lot better with a boost of adrenaline, so even for the "all HP damage is physical damage" crowd, it works)

This is exactly what I envision too, and experience it both when running (getting past that wall at the 20-ish min mark and finding your breath), and in sparring matches where you're almost tapped but find 'that little something' left in the tank for that last 3 minute match.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Nah. The BEST solution would be to have it burn an HD or something like that (and also factor CON into the mix like an HD, assuming they still do, which is unclear from the character sheet).

Maybe in my game or any slow-healing game we're not using HD anyway. Your BEST solution would only matter to the possibly very small group that is spamming Second Wind and is fine with abstract HP anyway, and where the daily alotment of HD isn't sufficient already, and they don't just say, "We rest for the day, everybody's full."

 

[VengerSatanis]

EDIT: You know, could everyone just wait for the game to actually come out before we start screaming chicken little? By that I mean not just the starter set, which is not aimed at us in the slightest, or Basic D&D, which doesn't have the modularity that is the core of the game for most of us, but like the actual PHB / MM / DMG all come out, and we play it?

Maybe we should do that before we worry about whether two non-concentration spells once per day (out of max level spells after that) in a single round is completely overpowered in the context of everything else that can be done with an optional multi-classing feature, or whether a single ability or two from the super simplified, self described board game version of a character + charitable misreading of a rule that is from a rules packet that is 9+ months old indicates that WotC just doesn't know how to balance games, or that they must be taking this strict design philosophy to its' extreme?

Seriously?

Can you link a quote on the self-described board game thing?

Not screaming, dude. Just pointing out that Basic D&D was supposed to be the game without all the fiddly bits. Advanced (the PHB and DMG) were supposed to have those. I plan on using the starter set to introduce noobs to D&D (and RPGs in general). But don't like the idea of a dozen extra, unnecessary, 3/4e bits and pieces, nor do I want to cross them off of the pre-gen character sheet or just create my own.

VS

 

[Remathilis]

So I cranked out the math on our Eldrich Knight Action Surged Double Fireball by comparing him to two other 7th level characters (a pure fighter, a pure mage). The Multi-class was the 2/5 split talked about to get 3rd level spells; he actually ISN'T an Eldrich Knight because fighters don't get their subclass until 3rd level. Then, I did the "go nova" route of using their best abilities in one round, and calculated average damage but no mitigation (aka hit everytime, opponent failed saves). Additionally, they have no magic items but proper weapons/focus.

CAVEAT: This is all using the 10/13 Playtest docs. Final product may differ.

Jake – Human Fighter (warrior) 7
Str: 20 (15+1 human +2 fourth level bump +2 6th level bump, max Str)
Attack: Greatsword +8/+8, 2d6+5, 18-20 Critical
Action Surge + Extra Attack (four hits) 8d6+20 = 48 damage (barring crits!) or 12 per hit .
Resources spent: Action Surge

Jackie – Human Wizard (evoker) 7
Int:18 (15 +1 human +2 4th level bump)
Spells per day: 4, 3, 3, 1
Spells Prepped: 8
Blight 8d8 (con ½ DC: 15) for 36 average damage.
Resources spent: one level 4 spell slot.

Jim – Human Fighter 2/Wizard (evoker) 5
Str: 15, Int: 18 (15 +1 human +2 4th level bump)
Attack: Greatsword +5, 2d6+2
Spells per day: 4, 3, 2
Spells Prepped: 6
Action-Surged Fireball/Fireball 6d6/6d6 (dex ½C 15) for average 42 damage (21 per fireball).
Resources spent: Action Surge, two level 3 spell slots.

---

So yeah, our multi-class surge monster did six less damage than our greatsword welding fighter. He did do more than our single classed mage, but our multi-classes surge mage wasted his action surge + TWO of his highest spell slots to get 6 more points of damage out of a round. Additionally, he has less spells prepped and 2 less slots per day for it.

So I'm not worried about multi-classes EKs.