D&D 5E Observations on the Monsters in the Starter Set.

[gyor]

will point out that the necromancy quote says animating the dead is not good, it doesn't say that its evil, it only makes one evil when done frequently. So a good PC Necromancer or Cleric could use it if ends justified the means and remain good.

So animating the bodies of innocent people for a rousing game of hop scotch daily is evil, but raising a group of dead hobgoblin's and turning them against an invading army, saving the village would still be good, because the ends trump the means in this case and its not done pettily.

Of course the necromancy description is pure fluffy, and not even binding fluff. If a good PC keeps raising undead his alignment will not be effect the characters alignment mechanically.

 

[trentonjoe]

Yeah, advantage or some proficiency bonus. Interested to see how this pans out.

 

[1of3]

I've never even heard of a game played by anyone where skeletons, zombies, necromancy, and animating corpses wasn't unarguably pure evil. Are you telling me people actually argue that it's not?

I had such a game. A player wanted a necromancer. It didn't occur to him that this would be evil. So apparently Necromancers were a respected profession in the world.

 

[sidonunspa]

ANy thoughts on turning undead? My original thought is that undead are going to be turned very often. Unless there is some sort of mechanic I am missing, a 16 Wisdom vampire is going to be turned by a 1st level cleric about 50% of the time.

depends, Vampires may work a lot like heroes... and will very much start out as CR5+ monsters.

with 16 wisdom your looking at +6 to their save, if not higher.

also remember the rules for facing a type of monster in their layer?

ya Vampires are going to be one of those... can not be turned in their layer? that sounds about right

 

[GX.Sigma]

ANy thoughts on turning undead? My original thought is that undead are going to be turned very often. Unless there is some sort of mechanic I am missing, a 16 Wisdom vampire is going to be turned by a 1st level cleric about 50% of the time.

Throughout all my playtesting with Turn Undead in its current form (open and closed alpha playtest), it has always seemed game-breakingly powerful.

 

[Savage Wombat]

depends, Vampires may work a lot like heroes... and will very much start out as CR5+ monsters.

with 16 wisdom your looking at +6 to their save, if not higher.

also remember the rules for facing a type of monster in their layer?

ya Vampires are going to be one of those... can not be turned in their layer? that sounds about right

I want vampire spawn as well. I have an idea for a city where they consider vampires as more of an annoying outbreak than a monster - something the police are constantly on guard against. And CR 5 is a bit high for that.

 

[tomBitonti]

I had such a game. A player wanted a necromancer. It didn't occur to him that this would be evil. So apparently Necromancers were a respected profession in the world.

In 3.5E, being a necromancer who raised / summon undead was by definition evil. But, you could be a necromancer who studied ways to defeat undead. Creepy, but not necessarily evil.

The question of whether casting spells with the Evil descriptor was necessarily evil, independent of the final end to which the spells were used, has arisen my my games. I've always said yes, but have gotten into arguments over this question. Once the first question is asked (is casting a spell with the Evil descriptor evil?), then there is quickly a second question: What happens when a player carefully balances Good spells with Evil spells?. The case that was most prevalent was using Summon Monster and selecting creatures from the Evil sub-lists. One player figured they were alright to summon such creatures, with the Evil keyword only showing what alignment was present on the summoned creatures, while I thought that summoning an Evil creature was evil, with alignment consequences. We fortunately never had to confront the question with me as GM and the other person as player.

In my Eberron campaign, I tried to present a group of Warforged who were using undead more or less as machinery, with the reasoning that that was how they were treated in the Last War. The players saw things differently, so the dilemma was mostly washed over, but I thought the parallel was interesting.

Scarred Lands had a city of necromancers.

Thx!

TomB

 

[Mistwell]

Throughout all my playtesting with Turn Undead in its current form (open and closed alpha playtest), it has always seemed game-breakingly powerful.

I have never heard of a game breaking because of turn undead. And having played with the playtest rules, and with a player that had turn undead, we never saw anything strain, much less break. So, did you really mean game breaking or were you exaggerating for effect? And if it really did break the game, what did you guys do, just not play anymore, or change the rule to be able to continue to play, or what?

 

[GX.Sigma]

I have never heard of a game breaking because of turn undead. And having played with the playtest rules, and with a player that had turn undead, we never saw anything strain, much less break. So, did you really mean game breaking or were you exaggerating for effect? And if it really did break the game, what did you guys do, just not play anymore, or change the rule to be able to continue to play, or what?

It didn't make the game unplayable, but it certainly broke every encounter it was used in. To be fair, I haven't had a ton of Clerics, and maybe there's just some weird dice luck going on over here, but every Turn Undead I saw went pretty much like this:

There's four ghouls! Roll initiative!
[PCs win initiative]
[Cleric uses Turn Undead]
...And now they all cower in the corner and let you kill them one at a time.

Actually, that's not entirely true. Some of them went like this:

There's four ghouls! Roll initiative!
[PCs win initiative]
[Cleric uses Turn Undead]
...Okay, two of them are cowering in the corner, so you can have a really easy time fighting the other two, then kill the turned ones one at a time.

 

[Kobold Stew]

How is that more game-breaking that a sleep spell, or a fireball? Isn't it just using a single character's finite resource in a specific way?