D&D 4E Is there a "Cliffs Notes" summary of the entire 4E experience?

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Samurai

Adventurer
I liked and had been playing 3.5 regularly before 4e was announced, but I didn't mind the idea of a new edition. I figured it would be an evolution of 3.5, fix a few things, add a few new ideas, but hopefully still pretty compatible. Rules info on the new edition was very, very sparse, and nearly all the previews focused on either setting/cosmology changes (which I thought sounded pretty cool, I was never a big fan of the great wheel, it's too artificial) or vague promises of faster, better ways to do things, like grappling. These reinforced my original assumption of 4e, so when 4e came out, I was surprised. Lots of traditional D&D things were gone (races, classes, spells, and entire design structures were missing or changed), and while some people were cheering about so many "sacred cows being slaughtered", many others were disappointed.

Personally, I was a bit put off by it all, it didn't "feel" like D&D to me with so many radical (and IMO unnecessary) changes and omissions. And there was a sense that it was rushed out the door because things like Skill Challenges (a supposedly important part of the new system) were so obviously broken as written that it was clear no one playtested it. Errata suggestions and forum threads about how to fix things were very common, and eventually my own house rules grew to 9 pages and the official errata grew to at least 113 pages (that was the last one I bothered downloading). Some books were eventually considered obsolete because most of the powers and stats in them were changed in the errata, and if you used the online tools for character building, the errata was automatically applied, but that no longer matched what the book said when you look up a power at the table.

The rest of my gaming group looked at 4e but were unwilling to switch to it. The consensus was "too much focus on combat and too much errata needed". We continued with 3.5 until Pathfinder was announced, and then we switched to it (first the Beta rules book, then the final version). I still wanted to play 4e, to try it out at the game table, so I played in a few organized events at game stores. It was very disappointing, 99% wargame with a short intro story for fluff. I still remember when my 1st character, in my 1st encounter, wanted to try talking to some people standing in the road (he was a Chr-based character). I won initiative and approached them, greeting them and asking if there was a problem. The other players rolled their eyes and shook their heads. When the next character's initiative came up, he charged and attacked the nearest "enemy", because "of course they are enemies, there wouldn't be a battlemap and initiative if they were friendly, just kill them all!"

I decided I'd try running my own games after that, and I volunteered to run 4E Encounters at my FLGS. Pretty much every adventure was just like what I'd experienced as a character (this was in the early days, Encounters adventures did slowly get a little better and have more story after a few years, but it was still pretty much just a string of (very long) combats loosely tied together, and unfortunately, by the time the stories did start to improve a little, interest in Encounters had waned to the point that I was lucky if 3 people showed up to play.)

Essentials was a very controversial release. It divided the 4e community in several ways, and I saw people playing "original 4e only" and "4Essentials only". They were meant to appeal to a variety of people... to new players, it was a new entry point into the game (because the old 4e PHB had so much errata that it was no longer valid), and to current players it had entirely new builds for the existing classes. It also printed a great deal of the errata that had previously been online, and made more changes as well, including changing racial bonuses, some feats, many powers, etc. Fans of original 4e were not happy with some of the changes. The new class versions harkened back to previous versions of D&D, with martial classes that made basic attacks rather than used attack powers, but they could ignore those if they wanted to. The changes to races, powers, feats, etc were incorporated into the errata and the character builder, and were harder to ignore. The books that came out after Essentials tried to appeal to both camps, featuring new options for both Essentials and original 4e classes and a greater emphasis on fluff. The difference between the old Adventurer's Vaults and Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium shows just how big a shift in direction there had been from the beginning of the edition to the end... the AV's were huge list of magic items with almost no fluff at all, while the MME had several paragraphs on each item, discussing its history, uses, etc. (and made an effort to include classic items from D&D's past, not just all new stuff)

All in all, 4e was made to appeal to a very specific sub-set of D&D players, and to them, it's likely to remain their favorite edition. To everyone else that had different priorities in their game, they either had to struggle to get 4e to do what they wanted or, more likely, they moved to another game that did what they wanted better. Personally, I hold no animosity toward WotC for trying 4e, even if it wasn't my cup of tea, and I'm gladly going to buy 5e as it looks like a return to what I enjoy.
 

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Remathilis

Legend
<My final thoughts on this, I promise>

I maintain a theory (and if there is proof to substantiate it, I'd love to see it) that 4e was released "half-baked". For whatever reason, it was rushed out the door without enough time to fix the issues it had. The core books alone suffered some of the worst problems, including (but not limited to)

* Poor understanding of monster math, with solo's having too much hp, ACs and to hits not aligning, and too much emphasis put on encounter powers (and the assumption they'd hit!) all combined to make early 4e combat a grindy, sloggy mess.
* Poorly executed Skill Challenge rules that were almost unusable out the gate and took several iterations to get right.
* V shaped classes (cleric, ranger, warlock) that had too much high stat dependence on multiple stats.
* Stat Dependence period: due to the poor monster math and the ability to pick the best of two scores for saves, it was very common to have a starting character with a 20, two average scores, and three 8s.
* BAD modules: Most of the early WotC offerings for modules were room-after-room combat sets with little sense of exploration or wonder. Enter room, kill monsters, get treasure, next room repeat. The few 3pp offerings (mostly by Goodman) were just as bad, but instead often converted 3e style adventures without adapting to 4e's "dynamic combat" style (one example was a single ogre in a 20 by 20 room).
* A distinct LACK of magic items in the core books, forcing everyone to buy Adventurer's Vault to have decent selection (aka the 4th core book).
* Errata errata errata. The DCs went through several iterations (ranging from "impossible" to "why bother, my bonus makes it") to constantly bug-squashing uber-combos (Stunlock wizards) to trying to patch the math (remember the magic armor AC boost? or Expertise?) to having whole books look like chaotic messes when patched (Morrus's PHB is the gravemarker for 4e).
* Flavor Text that was oozing in Worlds and Monsters was absent in the core books. Monsters were statblocks with pictures and a lore-chart. Magic items were just statblocks. The writing ranged from very specific (Bael Thurath) to blandly generic (what the hell is an arrowhawk?)

Plenty of these things would get fixed. The game got a lot better. But you only get one chance to make a first impression, and a LOT of these problems should have been found and fixed before the books ever went to print. In that, WotC horribly bungled 4e's debut, and I'm sure its why things went they way they did.
 

Obryn

Hero
<My final thoughts on this, I promise>

I maintain a theory (and if there is proof to substantiate it, I'd love to see it) that 4e was released "half-baked". For whatever reason, it was rushed out the door without enough time to fix the issues it had. The core books alone suffered some of the worst problems, including (but not limited to)

* Poor understanding of monster math, with solo's having too much hp, ACs and to hits not aligning, and too much emphasis put on encounter powers (and the assumption they'd hit!) all combined to make early 4e combat a grindy, sloggy mess.
* Poorly executed Skill Challenge rules that were almost unusable out the gate and took several iterations to get right.
* V shaped classes (cleric, ranger, warlock) that had too much high stat dependence on multiple stats.
* Stat Dependence period: due to the poor monster math and the ability to pick the best of two scores for saves, it was very common to have a starting character with a 20, two average scores, and three 8s.
* BAD modules: Most of the early WotC offerings for modules were room-after-room combat sets with little sense of exploration or wonder. Enter room, kill monsters, get treasure, next room repeat. The few 3pp offerings (mostly by Goodman) were just as bad, but instead often converted 3e style adventures without adapting to 4e's "dynamic combat" style (one example was a single ogre in a 20 by 20 room).
* A distinct LACK of magic items in the core books, forcing everyone to buy Adventurer's Vault to have decent selection (aka the 4th core book).
* Errata errata errata. The DCs went through several iterations (ranging from "impossible" to "why bother, my bonus makes it") to constantly bug-squashing uber-combos (Stunlock wizards) to trying to patch the math (remember the magic armor AC boost? or Expertise?) to having whole books look like chaotic messes when patched (Morrus's PHB is the gravemarker for 4e).
* Flavor Text that was oozing in Worlds and Monsters was absent in the core books. Monsters were statblocks with pictures and a lore-chart. Magic items were just statblocks. The writing ranged from very specific (Bael Thurath) to blandly generic (what the hell is an arrowhawk?)

Plenty of these things would get fixed. The game got a lot better. But you only get one chance to make a first impression, and a LOT of these problems should have been found and fixed before the books ever went to print. In that, WotC horribly bungled 4e's debut, and I'm sure its why things went they way they did.
No, I don't think most of that's controversial at all. 80% or more of it, I agree with. It was a bungled launch with terrible adventures, and it never recovered despite a huge increase in quality. You're right that the designers had no idea how the game they designed worked. They didn't hit their stride until phb2 and mm3, and that's just too long for most folks.

As I said, I was already hugely dissatisfied with 3.5, but even with its flaws, 4e was still a superior game for us. The fact that it got better is fortunate, and why I'm still running it now.
 

Dungeoneer

First Post
<My final thoughts on this, I promise>

I maintain a theory (and if there is proof to substantiate it, I'd love to see it) that 4e was released "half-baked". For whatever reason, it was rushed out the door without enough time to fix the issues it had. The core books alone suffered some of the worst problems, including (but not limited to)
It's possible that the books were rushed out before they were ready, but I also think that what 4e was trying to do was so radical that it was always going to take a while to get right. AEDU was new, the monster system was new, skill challenges were new, balanced classes were new...

There was a lot that hadn't really been tried before and they didn't know how it was all going to work together.

It would have been nice if it could have all been figured out right out of the gate, but I don't know if it would ever have been realistic. And even if it had, I question whether that's really what people's hang-ups were. When I hear people bashing 4e, it's never because the Paladin had a V-shaped stat distribution. It's because they don't like the concept of healing surges or fighters that have almost as many abilities as wizards or that the whole thing is too combat-focused. They don't like the very ideas that underpinned the system.

I don't know if 4e would have gotten a fair shake from those people even if all the i's had been dotted and t's had been crossed when the PHB was released.

I also question whether 4e really had more errata than other systems, or if it was just more visible. The developers basically decided that since they could release errata to most of the player base with digital tools they might as well go ahead and regard the system as a living system that was constantly being tweaked. In a sense the game was constantly being playtested. Which definitely improved it, but also made for a lot of 'errata' that made it look like the game was broken and buggy.
 

I haven't seen mentioned one of my particular gripes about the launch -

Not only did WotC not try to help players convert existing campaigns to 4th ed, they outright told players not to. (Something that always bugged me about Microsoft.) They could have provided tips or estimates for conversion, but they didn't want to. It contributed to that sense of "this is not the game you were playing, which of course sucked."

Many people have wondered if the game would have been better received if it hadn't been called "D&D".
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
4e was like a new restaurant that tried to do something new and fuse two styles of food. But the owner and head chef did not come up with good fusions and recipes until a few years past, for they didn't truly understand the concept. They only had 2 good dishes and marketed the whole thing poorly.

And by the time the owner and chef got their AHA! moment and filled the menu with good well made dishes.... the restaurant had gone under, the majority of customers were soured and gone, and was set to close down by the bank.
 
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Samurai

Adventurer
4e was like a new restaurant that tried to do something new and fuse two styles of food. But the owner and head chef did not come up with good fusions and recipes until a few years past, for they didn't truly understand the concept. They only had 2 good dishes and marketed the who think poorly.

And by the time the owner and chef got their AHA! moment and filled the menu with good well made dishes.... the restaurant had gone under, the majority of customers were soured and gone, and was set to close down by the bank.

Yeah, I think that's a pretty good analogy. Add in the fact that while they were struggling to get their fusion menu right another restaurant opened up across the street with good old-fashioned comfort food that was very flavorful and not as avant garde. :)
 

BryonD

Hero
The core books alone suffered some of the worst problems, including (but not limited to)
I think the keys words are "but not limited to". When I hear 4E fans talk about thing they wish were better, your list covers it.
When I hear people who didn't like 4E talk about it, these are not keys issues.
If the blend of fans to deserters was different then these might have made a bigger difference.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
I think you're understating this a bit. ☺To me, this is one of the great tragedies of the whole 4e saga. The first set of books give very little cogent advice or direction on how to effectively use the mechanics beyond setting up AWESOME! encounters. I personally didn't even see it as all that much of a mechanical evolution and totally whiffed on running it "indie" style. I was out of 4e before DMG2 even came out (why buy if no one is playing it?). And Fate is my system of choice! So you'd think I'd be catching that. When I came here after the 5e announcement, I was flabbergasted by the way folks like you and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] described your games. (Still am, to some extent.)

I don't know what kind of failure it is (writing, editing, design, marketing...), but honestly (between the DMG2 and various articles online) I sometimes feel like WotC didn't know what they had or how to play it when they released 4e.
I think this is probably spot-on; they really didn't realise what they had (except one or two guys, maybe, who "left" early). The deep tragedy to my mind is that, simultaneously with 4E, Hasbro Corporate got into a fad about OGL/GSL and IP "protection"/control so that it's quite likely no commercial entity will now make of 4E what it has the potential to be. Ah, well.

My suspicion is Manbearcat and pemerton fell into a mode of play the designers didn't understand existed in their game. I certainly never saw strong indie advice or any offerings of that sort of play in any published material produced by WotC -- certainly not in the first set of iterations (I stopped paying attention during the ***2 releases).
DMG2 has some, but I think the plurality of the designers really just didn't see what was opened up by the structures they had put in place. It's almost like an oared ship in which someone put a diesel generator to power on-board lights and refrigerators, but didn't figure out that, if they could just design a screw propeller, they could use it to drive the thing through the water, as well.

It's possible that the books were rushed out before they were ready, but I also think that what 4e was trying to do was so radical that it was always going to take a while to get right. AEDU was new, the monster system was new, skill challenges were new, balanced classes were new...

There was a lot that hadn't really been tried before and they didn't know how it was all going to work together.
Again, I think the Corporate faddism about secrecy and schedule meant that playtesting wasn't properly done. The first months of 4E were playtesting (hence the errata) that should have come in a big (hence non-secret) playtest before launch.

And on Essentials: something was needed, but sadly they went with a return to the old rather than a continued exploration of the new. That led to some quite worthy product, don't get me wrong, but not nearly as much was gained as could have been by extending the concepts that made 4E so much better than earlier editions, in my view. And now it will likely never happen - commercially, at least.
 

Remathilis

Legend
I think the keys words are "but not limited to". When I hear 4E fans talk about thing they wish were better, your list covers it.
When I hear people who didn't like 4E talk about it, these are not keys issues.
If the blend of fans to deserters was different then these might have made a bigger difference.

There are still a lot of raw nerves on some of those issues. ADEU, healing surges, the class/race choices in the PHB, the powers structure, world/fluff changes, and the martial "power source" are all much more subjective, and thus why I didn't bring them up.

I don't think there is anyone who will argue the 2008 skill challenge rules were just ducky though.
 

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