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D&D 5E Basic already surprising us.

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This is a very compelling argument. The "mechanical balance" arguments do nothing for me, but I like this argument. I like you for making this argument, this way. And if I was designing a game of mythical heroes from scratch, I'd totally be taking your argument into account, and making character options that make more sense on that level.

But D&D is D&D...

This.

Yeah, I really do not understand the concept of people who want to turn D&D into the medieval version of Champions and complain that it isn't. If they want to play such a game, there are options out there to do so.

But in D&D, they would need to houserule stuff to get what they want. And that too is a viable option.
 

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Yes, 5E Fireball is a bit unreal at either 14 or 28 average damage, but then again, a 5E 5th level fighter gets 3 or more attacks, often hitting and often doing 30 points in a single round.
The caparison was between the same class from 4e to 5e, not between 5e classes. You asserted that 5e wizards did less damage than in 4e. Relative to monster, hps, we can now agree, they do more.

One aspect of 5E casters though is that they really do not have more spells per level. Even if they go offensive with every single spell at level 5, that's 10 to 12 non-cantrip offensive spells and a boatload of cantrips.
In a 'typical' 5e day of 4 or so 4-round encounters thats 12 spells and 4 cantrips.

In 5 encounters, 4E wizards get 10 encounter, 2 daily and 1 utility spell plus their at wills
4-5 encounters is more typical of 4e, and rounds are likely closer to 5+ rounds than 3 or 4. So, two full-on spells, 2 lesser encounter spells used 1/encounter each, and 10 uses of at-wills. Also consider the variety of spells. At the start of the first combat, the 4e wizard has offensive options. That drops to 4 once he's used up his dailies. Each encounter gets used once, so if you assume using encounters early in every fight, choices are 6, 5, 4...until he finally uses dailies and ends 3, 2. The 5e wizard preps 9 spells plus 2 cantrips for 11 choices, assuming he is as reluctant to use his top-level slots as the 4e wizard is to use his dailies, he retains those 11 choices until he has used up his highest-level slots. But, really, 11 understates it, since the wizard can choose to use lower-level spells in higher level slots. So, for instance, each scalable level 1 spell represents 3 choices for the 5th level wizard. If those 9 prepped spells are evenly distributed over the 3 levels of spells available, that's 20 choices total, including cantrips. Dropping to 11 when out of 3rd level slots, and 5 when out of 2nd level slots.

5E casters do have more flexibility, but then again, many of the 4E powers do more than just damage.
As do 5e spells. 4e powers are more likely (for the wizard, almost certain) to do both a some damage and an effect of some kind. 5e spells are likely to do significantly more damage relative to enemy's hps /or/ much more dramatic effects.

At level 20, it's 22 to 32 Dailies for the 5E caster, and in 4E, 29 encounter, dailies, and utility powers in 5 encounters (not including bonus stuff from feats, themes, items, etc.).
Actually, it's 4 encounters, 4 dailies, 2 at wills, and some utilities, but why not cut to the chase and compare level 20 5e to level 30 4e. Then you're talking 2 at-wills, 4 encounters, 4 dailies and 6 utilities - plus (probably) an epic power of some sort, for a total of 17 choices, declining to 13 in each fight as encounter powers are expended, and to 9 as dailies are expended. Compared to 25 prepped spells, plus 5 cantrips, for a total of 30, dropping only when that top-level slot is expended, and not including the choice of casting scaling spells at various levels, which could easily push the total over 100.

And 4e was supposed to inflict decision paralysis.

Neo-vancian needs something to offset it. Easily saved spells, even for high level on and fewer of them (and wimpier in some cases, stronger in other, but not by too much).
Actually, saves may end up tougher than they've ever been outside of optimized 3e builds. Save DCs scale with 1 stat, easily pushed to 20, and automatically scale with proficiency. Prettymuch from 13 to 19 over 20 levels. Save bonuses, OTOH, scale with six different stats and only two receive proficiency. That means a caster will always be able to target a non-proficient save with no more than a +5 bonus - and possibly with a much lower bonus, even at high level. For a rare save, like CHA or INT, the worst case could easily be a -1 save penalty trying to hit a DC 19. In contrast, in AD&D old-school Vancian, save 'DCs' only went down as the targets leveled up, the caster's level and stats didn't come into it. A few spells would give a -2 save penalty (or even as much as a -6 vs specific targets or in specific situations - though the only example I can think of is Feeblemind used against another caster), but save bonuses could be accumulated from all sorts of items, as well as getting into the very low single-digits at high level. Failing saves only on a 1 was common at high level. Fighters, in particularly, improved /all/ their saves very quickly as they leveled.

So, yes, neo-Vancian gives fewer slots, scales with slots instead of levels, and has (for now) an arguably less-problematic set of spell lists. But saves are definitely looking pretty good from the caster side, relative to old-school Vancian, or even 4e attack rolls. Even relative to 3.5, save DCs scaling with level instead of slot is on the win side for 5e casters.
 

Speaking of 4e balance, my 4e experience as a player was lousy and I played a Fighter and felt continuously outdone and out-powered, even in combat, which was worse. We had a poor DM, but I felt my contribution in combat was completely pitiful.
Interesting. The fighter was the most heavily-supported class in the game until Essentials, and arguably the 'best' defender in the game. Did you feel outdone in combat by strikers in terms of DPR? Or by casters (or even just ranged combatants) in terms of versatility?
 

Well, this thread has done more than anything else to un-sell me on 5e, because we're fully down a wormhole where class imbalance isn't worked around, it's actively applauded and even insisted upon.
Folks are talking about a "mythic fighter" option. Like, a module to let Fighters be as cool as Beowulf.

In other words, that there should be a Fighter who's actually better than the Fighter we just got. In other other words, that there's an acknowledgment and acceptance that there could be an actual better Fighter who won't break the game's balance, but which some folks don't want to see because then the Fighter would be... stronger and more versatile? And this is what the game is being designed around?

To hell with that, guys.
 

Well, this thread has done more than anything else to un-sell me on 5e, because we're fully down a wormhole where class imbalance isn't worked around, it's actively applauded and even insisted upon.
Folks are talking about a "mythic fighter" option. Like, a module to let Fighters be as cool as Beowulf.

In other words, that there should be a Fighter who's actually better than the Fighter we just got. In other other words, that there's an acknowledgment and acceptance that there could be an actual better Fighter who won't break the game's balance, but which some folks don't want to see because then the Fighter would be... stronger and more versatile? And this is what the game is being designed around?

To hell with that, guys.

Note: There is absolutely zero evidence that the dmg is going to provide options for making martial characters more relevant. This is something people are pulling out of their a...that they are pulling out of whole cloth. Nothing in the interviews or the previews support this.

When people would criticize the playtest, people would say "wait for the release!" When the basic rules came out, people said "wait for the phb!" Then the alpha phb leaked and it showed that martial characters have been screwed over even more in the final release, so now it's "wait for the dmg!!!"
 

I really don't get one side of the argument on the mythic fighter thing.

Those of us who don't want our fighter like that want fighting to be believable outside of a mythic context. We don't want demigods or others warriors who are using clearly supernatural capabilities as the only option for fighters. Our fighters are martial artists who are bound by things like gravity.

We don't see a high level wizard as a demigod or supernatural being because, based on how magic is described in the game, he is essentially a gadgeteer. He is equivalent to a guy carrying a rocket launcher, laser pistol, and having a remote control that can call down a tactical nuke. There is nothing he innately has (other than brains) that allows him to manipulate reality like a superhero. His spells are applications of scientific knowledge. Now a psion or sorcerer on the other hand is straight up a superhero. There is an important distinction.

If a fighter had magic boots that let him jump super far, a belt that gave him the strength of a giant, and an amulet that made his skin like stone, he would be similar to a wizard. He has tools that allow him to do stuff natural capacity can't.

I just don't get how some of you seem to absolutely refuse to acknowledge that there is a whit of conceptual or setting difference between innately supernatural capabilities and tools that allow you to do things beyond natural capacities.

Innate vs. tools. It is a conceptual distinction. Maybe you don't give a care about it in your game, but I for one feel like you are demanding that we don't care about it in our game and that our distinctions are arbitrary. They are not. They are entirely rational and consistent distinctions.

And I also haven't seen anyone saying that they don't want you to be able to do it your way. I see people actually saying they support your right to have such options in the game, either through subclasses that allow that or DMG modules that change the game. You can do it that way and no one is going to complain.

But you can't fairly demand that the game be presented in such a manner that we can't do it our way.
 

Well, this thread has done more than anything else to un-sell me on 5e, because we're fully down a wormhole where class imbalance isn't worked around, it's actively applauded and even insisted upon.
Folks are talking about a "mythic fighter" option. Like, a module to let Fighters be as cool as Beowulf.

In other words, that there should be a Fighter who's actually better than the Fighter we just got. In other other words, that there's an acknowledgment and acceptance that there could be an actual better Fighter who won't break the game's balance, but which some folks don't want to see because then the Fighter would be... stronger and more versatile? And this is what the game is being designed around?

To hell with that, guys.

Well, what's your experience with playing 5e? Or are you going to take what people say in this thread, pro and con, as truth without exploring it for yourself? Personally, most of what I'm seeing about 5e is positive but I'm still going to wait for the release and play it for myself before I really decide how it fits into my gaming life... just like I did with 1e, 2e, 3e, and 4e before it.

And, if my previous experiences are any indicator, if I'm having fun as a fighter, I won't really care if I have reality warping powers and someone else in the party does. Because I'm having fun... as a fighter.
 

I just don't get how some of you seem to absolutely refuse to acknowledge that there is a whit of conceptual or setting difference between innately supernatural capabilities and tools that allow you to do things beyond natural capacities.

...

But you can't fairly demand that the game be presented in such a manner that we can't do it our way.

The issue is that conceptual/setting differences have impact on game mechanics/balance difference. Setting and mechanics are not cleanly separable. Insisting that a specific setting/conceptual/playstyle difference be supported has mechanical implications that can then preclude another specific setting/conceptual/playstyle difference.

It comes down to this - no game system supports *everything*. There are choices to be made, such that no single ruleset will ever satisfy *everyone*.

That is okay, so long as we recognize that eventually, we accept that maybe we need to have different games.
 

Innate vs. tools. It is a conceptual distinction. Maybe you don't give a care about it in your game, but I for one feel like you are demanding that we don't care about it in our game and that our distinctions are arbitrary. They are not. They are entirely rational and consistent distinctions.
Wanting a feel in the game where supernatural power is mediated by tools is perfectly fine. I'd totally support that. And honestly, for a game that originated around dungeon crawls, basing supernatural powers around found artifacts works great.

But why, then, does this wizard gain them automatically through leveling, and the fighter have to find all his magical powers? Wouldn't it make more sense for the wizard to get a few cantrips and rituals, and have all of his other spells acquired through the discovery of wands, staves, and magic scrolls, just as the fighter gains his powers through magic swords and armor?
 

In other words, that there should be a Fighter who's actually better than the Fighter we just got. In other other words, that there's an acknowledgment and acceptance that there could be an actual better Fighter who won't break the game's balance, but which some folks don't want to see because then the Fighter would be... stronger and more versatile? And this is what the game is being designed around?
As a 4venger who's played a good amount of 3.X/PF and is cautiously excited about 5e, I do think the wizard and fighter are much closer to each other in 5e than they are in 3.X. Without the endurance boosters of wands and scrolls, and a much lower number of casts per day, the wizard isn't the soloing beast he was before. The balance now is much more similar to Leverage than it is to the Justice League.
 

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