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D&D 5E Basic already surprising us.

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Thousands of people out of billions isn't exactly compelling.

Of course it is. We're talking about a tabletop game for one, and one that is a role playing game for another. It's max population peaked around 3 million. Thousands is an incredibly high sample rate for that sort of population - way more than we project presidential races on, for example. We're not trying to convert all of China and India to playing D&D, just a relatively small number of mostly Americans and English-speaking Europeans.
 

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TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
LOL wow. Yeah, 4chan and SA, that's a good source for "people don't like it in general"!
4chan and SA are both large forums with active gaming communities. The fact that they skew towards younger, "internet-bro" types doesn't change that.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
You're not presenting data though. You're taking Mearls's word for it.

Yes. That's right. I am assuming there is not some vast conspiracy at WOTC to torpedo their own department, and all their own jobs, by forcing D&D in a direction that runs contrary to the data from their customers.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Unless you have proof of this conspiracy based on a huge lie, you should cut it out.

Yes, it is a reasonable, rationale thing to do to assume that Mike Mearls is telling the truth when he reports that the data they got back is what he says it is.

Games are realizing that you can ignore sacred cows, and games like Fate Core are gaining ground.

Here is some useful data.
D&D 5e: 60.71%
FATE: 0.78%

FATE is literally a rounding error right now for D&D (and the gap is actually widening over time, as FATE goes down and D&D goes up).

That's no dig on FATE. If that's your game, go have fun with it. But don't pretend FATE is proof of something for D&D. If anything, the data says drastically different.

I realize you can't argue on the merits

Oh no, that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying the merits are not what you think they are. Merits means, "the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward." It's an overall macro claim, not a micro claim. You think the merits are things like DPR and replication of skills via spells and that sort of number crunching. That's not the merits, those are microscopic details of sub-categories of small aspects of the game. No, the merits are, "what issues seem to be making the game more or less fun, in a meaningful way, for a vast majority of people likely to play the game". THOSE are the merits of this game that I am insisting you at least take into account.

so you insist on people producing data that's impossible to get a hold of

No I am not. I am asking that, unless you make a claim about what your personal preference might be (in which case, you need no proof), when you're making broad based claims about "things that make the game unfun" or "things which make people not want to play the game", then you have data to support those claims which is at least equal to the data I am mentioning.

What I'm saying is that it would have a lot more broad appeal--and be more fun for me personally--if they had made more of an effort to make sure that all classes could contribute in meaningful ways outside of the combat minigame.

You can say it would be more fun for you personally. But you cannot back up the claim that it would have a lot more broad appeal if it conformed more to your personal preference - not when the only data we DO have runs contrary to that (that a representative sampling of the playtesters, who came from a diverse variety of backgrounds and preferences, all liked it in actual play). And when I ask you to back up that claim, and you fail to produce even a mere scintilla of evidence to back it up, I am calling you out on it.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
I am pitting thousands and thousands of playtest reports, from people who went in with a large variety of biases for favored editions, who a "staggering majority" said it played very well; all against your anecdote.
You're really not. The playtest was a highly self-selected survey. Not only does self-selection skew results, but the playtest took a very definite direction early on that may have resulted in a real drop-off in participation, and thus channelized the whole thing. I say 'may have,' because the few numbers WotC has chosen to quote happen to give /no idea/ whether the playtest grew or shrank as it continued.

Stop and think about that. When you're doing marketing spin, the only reason to report total participation instead of rapidly-increasing participation is that the time series /looks bad/.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
4chan and SA are both large forums with active gaming communities. The fact that they skew towards younger, "internet-bro" types doesn't change that.

They are both known, by very strong reputation, as the places for people to go to bitch about things within the geek community. Are you denying that? Are you really arguing the sample of posters at SA is more representative of the wider D&D community (potential and actual) than the participants in the playtests?
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
You're really not.

I really am.

The playtest was a highly self-selected survey.

You've made this claim before, and it isn't a meaningful one.

Yes, it is self-selected. But no, you have not produced anything saying that, for this sort of information, self-selection is a bad thing. They made sure to sample from fans of each of the various editions, and fans of other RPGs, and across the spectrum of age and a wide variety of other backgrounds. They weighted the data. That's good data. Nobody claimed it was perfect data, but it's good usable data. If you have proof it's not, let's see it.

Not only does self-selection skew results

Show me how it meaningfully skews results for this sort of question. You keep saying this like it's self-evident. It's not. It's well established business practice, it's got the backing of years of research in the business analyst field, show me where self-selected surveys for a question and field like this skews results in a material way.

but the playtest took a very definite direction early on that may have resulted in a real drop-off in participation and thus channelized the whole thing. I say 'may have,' because the few numbers WotC has chosen to quote happen to give /no idea/ whether the playtest grew or shrank as it continued.

You're assuming X happened, based on pure speculation, when it would run contrary to the best interests of WOTC to proceed that way. You're claiming they saw a big drop-off happen, could see where it was happening, and then just continued to support the minority opinions that were left "because"? That runs contrary to rationale thinking. Rationally, we assume (baring evidence to the contrary) that they saw consistent data like they said they were seeing.

Stop and think about that. When you're doing marketing spin, the only reason to report total participation instead of rapidly-increasing participation is that the time series /looks bad/.

I've thought a LOT about these issues - we've been debating them for a year now. The claim this is all marketing spin has nothing to back it up and is based on what comes down to a conspiracy theory that would realistically mean people not only don't care about their jobs but are actively working to lose their jobs just so their pet preferences come out on top for an edition of D&D. It's an extraordinary claim with no evidence to back it up.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
I deliberately and specifically did not quote the part of your post about fun. To reiterate:

This is the bit that's the opposite of the truth. I won't say that it's a lie, because a lie implies malice. But it's not true.

The issue is not a numerical one. It's not a wash in actual game play.

Fighters are not in the same ballpark as Wizards, and my posts explain how and why.

Hi Jack,

It's nice to see new people here - welcome to ENworld!

But I must remind you of the code of practice that you signed up to when you joined - it is important for the civility of the site that people avoid making what amounts to personal attacks on one another, and you are steering very close to that line at the moment.

A good general rule is talk about what is fun for you but try to avoid getting into arguments - it isn't your job to convince people to see 'the truth', and it rarely if ever works!

Thanks
Plane Sailing
ENworld Admin
 

Merlin the Tuna

First Post
Here is some useful data.
D&D 5e: 60.71%
FATE: 0.78%

FATE is literally a rounding error right now for D&D (and the gap is actually widening over time, as FATE goes down and D&D goes up).

That's no dig on FATE. If that's your game, go have fun with it. But don't pretend FATE is proof of something for D&D. If anything, the data says drastically different.
That's some data, but "useful" is dubious. By the same logic, I can point out that the Google+ community for Fate Core has 20% more members and 3x as many posts compared to the Pathfinder one. I'd be certifiably crazy to assert that that's "useful data" in depicting that Fate is crushing Pathfinder in the market. Showing of ENWorld's activity on non-d20 systems is pretty much the same deal.
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Y'know what? This thread started off being about 'surprising rules that people have found in 5e' but has turned into back and forth arguments about whether or not it is a game that people can have fun playing.

As a result, I'm going to call this thread done for now and close it.

Hopefully we won't see such dramatic thread drift happen on other topics!

Thanks
 

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