D&D 5E Halfling rogue sniping from the the second rank

[Li Shenron]

The rules seem pretty clear to me. The ability specifically says "You can attempt to hide even when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you."

No they are not, and the fact that every time a discussion about hiding starts you get many pages of different opinions, is the proof they aren't ever clear enough. One genuine problem is that half gamers are always thinking about hiding as an action to become hidden, while the other half focuses on the condition of being hidden; another is that some mainly refers to hiding behind something (i.e. your entire self is not in line-of-sight) while the other refers to hiding inside something (i.e. "merge" with foliage or shadows so that you aren't noticed even if that doesn't mean the sight of each bit of you is blocked).

There are at least 3-4 different places in the Basic rules where you should check to get an overview of the subject: Hiding (p.60), Vision and Light (p. 65), Unseen Attackers and Targets (p.73), Blinded and Invisible conditions (p.105). Probably the description of the Naturally Stealthy halfling ability is the clearest one to understand.

I suppose if I study these 5 descriptions carefully, I will find out I've been wrong all the time. The fact that such study is required to play the game "correctly" already disqualifies it from being "clear".

Edit: also, please avoid saying stuff like "if you want to change how it works..." because it sounds insulting even if that's not your intention

 

[transtemporal]

Probably the description of the Naturally Stealthy halfling ability is the clearest one to understand.

Exactly, so what does the other stuff matter? It's absolutely beside the point.

Edit: also, please avoid saying stuff like "if you want to change how it works..." because it sounds insulting even if that's not your intention

Sorry about that, its hard to tell on the internet if people are "concerned trolling".

 

[transtemporal]

One genuine problem is that half gamers are always thinking about hiding as an action to become hidden, while the other half focuses on the condition of being hidden; another is that some mainly refers to hiding behind something (i.e. your entire self is not in line-of-sight) while the other refers to hiding inside something (i.e. "merge" with foliage or shadows so that you aren't noticed even if that doesn't mean the sight of each bit of you is blocked).

There are at least 3-4 different places in the Basic rules where you should check to get an overview of the subject: Hiding (p.60), Vision and Light (p. 65), Unseen Attackers and Targets (p.73), Blinded and Invisible conditions (p.105).

There are conditions that you must meet in order to make a stealth roll to become hidden (p.60, p.65).

There are effects that apply to you while you remain hidden (p.73, p.105).

Whats so complicated about this?

 

[ExploderWizard]

I think everyone needs to take a step back and think about how easy it is for a rogue to get advantage anyway, even if he's not a halfling. I get the impression that they are basically always supposed to get sneak attack if they are playing well and are generally supposed to be able to get advantage if they put some effort into it. But personal impressions aside, here are the facts that back up my position:

In the hiding rule, "until discovered" applies only to the current instance of being hidden. Nowhere does it say you are prevented from hiding again.

Look where it says "an invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide." Not "it can always try to hide unless someone knows it's there." This proves that discovery does not prevent future attempts to hide. Even if you find a hidden invisible creature, it can try to hide again as long as it remains invisible.

In fact, the only thing that can prevent you from trying to hide is if the enemy can see you. Knowledge and awareness have nothing to do with anything.

Therefore when the halfling pops out from behind the fighter and shoots, he/she becomes unhidden. Also, the enemies now can see the halfling. Because of that, the halfling cannot attempt to hide again until line of sight is broken again. This can be from the halfling moving around a corner, or the enemy being blinded.

As long as the halfling is visible, and enemies can see, the halfling cannot hide again. The halfling can't just duck behind the same fighter or another character in plain view and hide again if an enemy is in position to see it happen.

Keep in mind the rogue doesn't need advantage to gain sneak attack damage. Just fighting adjacent to an ally grants that. That is powerful enough on its own to make the fighter look like a 2nd string combatant without adding cheesy advantage on every ranged attack.

Bear in mind, a halfling can never gain advantage with certain weapons. Is it such a terrible thing to allow him more opportunities to gain advantage with the ones he can use?

It wouldn't be if advantage didn't grant ridiculous amounts of sneak attack damage on top of the weapon. Oh its only a halfling throwing a dagger -FOR 5d6 DAMAGE!

 

[AstroCat]

This has come up in our game since we have a LF halfling rogue running around.

Basically she attempts a hide at the start of combat from behind the front line fighter(s).
If successful she can attack with her bow with advantage. Now she is seen by the enemies.
If she moves to another location out of the line sight (within reason using common sense to the situation at hand!) she can attempt another hide and go for it again.

I think the key for us, once she attacks with the bow she isn't hidden anymore and almost always needs to move again before hiding again.

It's works for us and seems to keep the common sense of the battle believable.

 

[TwoSix]

It wouldn't be if advantage didn't grant ridiculous amounts of sneak attack damage on top of the weapon. Oh its only a halfling throwing a dagger -FOR 5d6 DAMAGE!

That's kind of the sticking point, isn't it? What the expectation is for how often a rogue should be able to sneak attack, and how much damage a rogue should be doing compared to other fighting classes.

Personally, my genre expectation is for more of a WoW rogue approach, where the class can handle itself in a melee, and is damage competitive with a fighter. But I understand that other people want the rogue to be more of a backstabber, and then stay out of the way of the scrum.

 

[Plaguescarred]

But if i can clarify one thing or two, the advantage benefit from being hidden doesn't come so much from the fact that enemies don't know exactly where you are (even within a space 5 ft. x 5 ft.) but that you are not visible, just like being invisible or heavily obscured grant.

You have advantage when you are in dense foliage even if the enemies know exactly where you are, which means positioning awareness is not relevant to getting advantage as the ability to not be seen is.

Also, you don't need to move in order to try to hide. If you become invisible or your space become enshrouded in dense fog or magical darkness, you can try to hide even if you don't move again from where you were last and the enemies knows exactly where you are.


BR73 Unseen Attacker and Targets: When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.

 

[Agamon]

You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position.

This is an important line. If someone can see you, you can't try to hide.

Knowing about your presence is important. Why can someone watch you duck behind a rock and you're hidden, but if you sneeze while behind that rock, you aren't hidden?

When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.

Why does someone need to search for signs of your presence is they know exactly where you are?

All of this implies the common sense notion that if an enemy is aware of where you are, you aren't hidden.
To state otherwise implies that the halfling is both magically disappearing and removing from his enemies the idea he exists. Cool ability.

 

[transtemporal]

All of this implies the common sense notion that if an enemy is aware of where you are, you aren't hidden.
To state otherwise implies that the halfling is both magically disappearing and removing from his enemies the idea he exists. Cool ability.

In your idea world where there is one rock, no other cover, no combatants, no distractions and you have all the time in the world to focus on the rock? Sure, OK.

But in combat where you may have someone trying to cut your head off? No. As soon as the hiding enemy breaks line of sight, you don't know where he is. He could still be there or he could've moved away, you don't know because you're only using passive perception. In any case, at that moment he isn't as much of a threat as the maniac trying to cut your head off.

I've played a fair amount of paintball and I'm not a professional soldier but its really easy to lose your target when theres any cover and you have multiple people shooting at you. The number of times I've sworn an enemy was behind a hoarding only to see them disappearing into the trees in the distance. In other words, people can move fast in a short amount of time and you won't necessarily see them moving, even when your attention is laser focused on the place you thought they were.

 

[fjw70]

This is an important line. If someone can see you, you can't try to hide.

Knowing about your presence is important. Why can someone watch you duck behind a rock and you're hidden, but if you sneeze while behind that rock, you aren't hidden?



Why does someone need to search for signs of your presence is they know exactly where you are?

All of this implies the common sense notion that if an enemy is aware of where you are, you aren't hidden.
To state otherwise implies that the halfling is both magically disappearing and removing from his enemies the idea he exists. Cool ability.

All hidden means is they can't see you or hear you. They may be pretty sure they know where you are but they cannot be sure. Maybe the hider teleported away. Until you are detected they can't be sure.

So seeing a halfling duck behind its ally and become hidden just means the halfling cannot be seen or heard anymore. The enemy can see target that space but the halfling will get a +2 boost to AC for cover and the attacker will have disadvantage since the halfling cannot be seen.

However the attacker can move to a position that has line of sight to the halfling and defeat the hidden condition that way.