D&D 5E 5e Cosmology

[Tony Vargas]

Thanks for the response steeldragons. This is how I remember it:

In the 1e MotP, the AD&D worlds were implied to be different planets in different solar systems somewhere in the black void of the Prime Material Plane.

Before that, the implication was that each D&D world was an alternate plane on the Prime Material, and the Prime Material had an infinite number of such planes.

In 4e: I didn't follow 4e much, but it seems to me that the "Astral Sea" was a merger of the Astral Plane (of Planescape) and Wild Space (of Spelljammer), with each Outer Plane being a discrete planet which could be visited by an astral ship. I don't know where the planets and solar systems of Nerath, Toril, and Athas were supposed to be relative to each other.

The 'Astral Dominions' weren't planets (they didn't orbit suns for instance), and were accessed from 'color veils' floating in the Astral Sea, and surrounded by peripheral islands of reality. They could be theoretically infinite, like a plane of existence, or quite finite. "The World," inhabited by natural creatures (and primal spirits) native to it, isn't necessarily a planet, either, and, as in the olden days, there are may alternate worlds - but, to mirror them, only one Feywild and Shadowfell. That's given as one reason that going to the Feywild can lead to apparent time-travel, because you come out in a different World.

It was really all very fuzzy. It'd be very easy to conceive of the Astral Sea and Dominions as the Astral Plane and Outer Planes. The Outer Planes are just more organized, while Dominions kind of float around.

Oh, and the 'Sea' aspect of the Astral Sea is defined by this vague mist or dust that forms an apparent surface & horizon. It's the dust from the destruction of 'The Lattice of Heaven" which once connected all the Dominions before being destroyed in the Dawn War, and which some of the Gods hope to someday re-build. It's easy to imagine that the Lattice /was/ the Great Wheel, or that the Great Wheel is the replacement for the Lattice that the Gods eventually created.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

Thanks Vargas for the rundown of the 4e cosmology. I wonder how 5e will reconcile all these conceptions.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Is there any mention of how "outer space" is handled? Any mention of solar systems or crystal spheres or galaxies? Is the Astral Plane/Astral Sea the same as Wild Space?

There is no mention of Wild Space or Phlogiston. The closest it gets is mentioning that there are multiple "worlds" on the Material Plane. Presumably travel between these worlds would be through some medium that lies in between them all, so that's probably where Spelljammer would fit. So there's room for it, though it hasn't been mentioned.

I really really don't like the idea that the multiverse defines the limits of D&D and that every D&D campaign is assumed to be set within it. It doesn't look like Eberron will have the orrey return in 5e, and it looks like all the worlds from 2e don't get their room to breathe and that if WotC wants to publish a world based on, say, Chinese myths that it is going to have four elemental planes and That Is That.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

I really really don't like the idea that the multiverse defines the limits of D&D and that every D&D campaign is assumed to be set within it. It doesn't look like Eberron will have the orrey return in 5e, and it looks like all the worlds from 2e don't get their room to breathe and that if WotC wants to publish a world based on, say, Chinese myths that it is going to have four elemental planes and That Is That.

I hear you KMidge. I wonder how the 5e Manual of the Planes will incorporate all the build-your-own cosmology options of 3e, while still keeping the homey feeling of one "Multiverse of D&D Worlds."

 

[Remathilis]

I hear you KMidge. I wonder how the 5e Manual of the Planes will incorporate all the build-your-own cosmology options of 3e, while still keeping the homey feeling of one "Multiverse of D&D Worlds."

Really, it could be very easy...

The Planes of Eberron could be 13* planes that due to Eberron's nature wax-and-wane influence (this could be a quirk of location or some magical trait Eberron has). The literally don't circle around (that's a poetic way of looking at things, like how the sun doesn't literally go around the Earth) but more the planes "crest and recede" influence.

Which planes are those?

Daanvi could be another name for Arcadia
Dal Quor is a rather-large demi-plane just outside the known planes
Dolurrh is a realm on the outlands or Hades
Fernia is a portion of the Elemental Plane of Fire
Irian is the edge of Positive Energy Plane
Kythri is another name for Limbo
Lamannia could be a portion of the Beastlands or Arborea
Mabar is a region of the Shadowfell
Risia is a part of Elemental plane of Water or a demiplane.
Shavarath is a realm within Acheron
Syrania is part pf the borderrealm of the Elemental Plane of Air
Thelanis is the Feywild
Xoriat is the Far Realm

The other planes exist, but are unheard of by Eberronians. For all their magical knowledge, they are rather clueless berks about the planes.

 

[gyor]

The outer planes section makes it clear that the Outer Planes of Planescape aren't the only Outer Planes.

 

[Halivar]

My plan is to merge 4E and 3.x cosmology thusly:

• The astral sea has all the schtuff in the middle of the great wheel. At the periphery of the astral sea is the wheel itself, with the color veils.
• The color veils are actually where the River Styx passes through that realm. If you look at the River Styx from the other side, you see a river of stars. You can float in it, swim in it, or drown in it; but if you have an astral skiff you can dive through it and into the astral sea.

 

[doctorhook]

It doesn't look like Eberron will have the [orrery] return in 5e...

This thought makes me sad. Monkeying with Eberron's planes was one of the only things about 4E that truly cheesed me.

Really, it could be very easy...

The Planes of Eberron could be 13* planes that due to Eberron's nature wax-and-wane influence (this could be a quirk of location or some magical trait Eberron has). The literally don't circle around (that's a poetic way of looking at things, like how the sun doesn't literally go around the Earth) but more the planes "crest and recede" influence.

Which planes are those?

Daanvi could be another name for Arcadia
Dal Quor is a rather-large demi-plane just outside the known planes
Dolurrh is a realm on the outlands or Hades
Fernia is a portion of the Elemental Plane of Fire
Irian is the edge of Positive Energy Plane
Kythri is another name for Limbo
Lamannia could be a portion of the Beastlands or Arborea
Mabar is a region of the Shadowfell
Risia is a part of Elemental plane of Water or a demiplane.
Shavarath is a realm within Acheron
Syrania is part pf the borderrealm of the Elemental Plane of Air
Thelanis is the Feywild
Xoriat is the Far Realm

The other planes exist, but are unheard of by Eberronians. For all their magical knowledge, they are rather clueless berks about the planes.

This is definitely a noble attempt to reconcile Eberron's cosmology with the Great Wheel, but I think it only really works in cursory way. I'm definitely okay with Eberron using material written about the Great Wheel planes to populate locations and encounters within its own cosmology, but it's a step too far to say that there are a bunch of other planes (i.e.: the rest of the Great Wheel) that don't connect to Eberron for arbitrary reasons. That proposition violates the Baker's Dozen of the Draconic Prophesy, as well as Eberron's own creation story involving the Progenitor Wyrms.

 

[kenmarable]

This is definitely a noble attempt to reconcile Eberron's cosmology with the Great Wheel, but I think it only really works in cursory way. I'm definitely okay with Eberron using material written about the Great Wheel planes to populate locations and encounters within its own cosmology, but it's a step too far to say that there are a bunch of other planes (i.e.: the rest of the Great Wheel) that don't connect to Eberron for arbitrary reasons. That proposition violates the Baker's Dozen of the Draconic Prophesy, as well as Eberron's own creation story involving the Progenitor Wyrms.

Exactly. If you are playing an Eberron campaign, then just ignore everything that's not Eberron. You don't need to know how it fits at all. Eberron's cosmology is reality. At most you could use some rules of thumb where "if Great Wheel says X, then it is Y in Eberron" but that's just to save time in conversion. It need not have any basis whatsoever in the reality of the PCs.

The only time this becomes an issue is if you are world hopping. If you have a campaign that involves Eberron, FR, etc. AND involves the Outer Planes significantly, then (and I'd say only then) does this even come up. In that case, I'm of a mind that even the idea of separate planes is just an invention of limited mortal minds. Some of those puny minds draw the lines on imaginary maps one way, others a different way. Both are true in a way, and both are false in that they are too feeble to grasp the truth of reality. That seems to fit better than certain planes just not having a connection to a world and the Primes are just clueless.