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D&D 5E Improving the Fighter's Stickiness

the Jester

Legend
So I've seen several comments to the effect that a 5e fighter isn't very sticky. The Sentinel feat does a lot, but the fact that a character only gets one reaction is a significant detriment to stickiness.

I don't know if it's necessary or desirable to make the fighter more sticky, or if the approach is to change the class somehow or to add a new feat. My first thought went the feat route, and this was what I came up with:

Combat Reflexes
You are skilled at taking advantage of the openings of your enemies. You gain the following benefits.
  • Once per round, you can make an opportunity attack without using your reaction.
  • You gain advantage on opportunity attacks.

But it might also be wise to build a new fighter subclass that focuses on being sticky. Maybe something that allows multiple opportunity attacks per round, combined with marking elements or something like that.

I dunno, what do you think?

For the record, I'm pretty well talking out of my butt, since I still have five days until I get my PH, so I'm unable to evaluate my tentative stab at a feat yet.
 

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So I've seen several comments to the effect that a 5e fighter isn't very sticky. The Sentinel feat does a lot, but the fact that a character only gets one reaction is a significant detriment to stickiness.

I don't know if it's necessary or desirable to make the fighter more sticky, or if the approach is to change the class somehow or to add a new feat. My first thought went the feat route, and this was what I came up with:

Combat Reflexes
You are skilled at taking advantage of the openings of your enemies. You gain the following benefits.
  • Once per round, you can make an opportunity attack without using your reaction.
  • You gain advantage on opportunity attacks.

But it might also be wise to build a new fighter subclass that focuses on being sticky. Maybe something that allows multiple opportunity attacks per round, combined with marking elements or something like that.

I dunno, what do you think?

For the record, I'm pretty well talking out of my butt, since I still have five days until I get my PH, so I'm unable to evaluate my tentative stab at a feat yet.

The problem is that the OA issue is a dual problem, because there's:

A) You only get one Reaction, so you are zero threat once that's used (however it gets used and there are tons of encouragements to use it outside of OAs, too!).

and

B) OAs are an ever-decreasing threat because Fighters (particularly) get most of their damage from their Extra Attacks feature. So they are initially scary, but are a joke by level 10, because they're equal to a single hit, and cannot, RAW, be used to Shove or Grab.

I think sub-class would probably be the right way to go. If you wanted to do Feats, combining your Feat and Sentinel would have considerably increased stickiness. You could also have it so the Feat allowed OAs that missed to not use up any resources at all.

If you do go Feats, though, that's two big chunky Feats just to get mild stickiness, and still doesn't pack a wallop damage-wise. I think it's fair to say that it would not actually be unbalanced for a Fighter to do double-damage on OAs, maybe triple and quadruple at the levels when he gets 3 and 4 attacks respectively.
 

What about a battlemaster maneuver? Something about expending a superiority die for an opportunity attack?

Combined with the maneuver that lets you trip an enemy, and the Sentinel feat, that'd get pretty sticky...
 

What about a battlemaster maneuver? Something about expending a superiority die for an opportunity attack?

Combined with the maneuver that lets you trip an enemy, and the Sentinel feat, that'd get pretty sticky...

Er, if you burn 2 Battle Master dice on a single OA, as you're seemingly describing, you will be completely out of Battle Master Dice in 2 OAs.

You see the problem, right? You only get 4 BM dice per Short Rest (and that's an HOUR!). You're meant to spread out their usage and make sure every one counts. Then there's also the manuever you had to buy to even get to use them this way. It's not an awful idea, but working that way, you'd run out of dice very very quickly.

It also doesn't solve the low-damage issue. Even adding the die to the damage of the OA (as one assumes you would) won't add enough to make it particularly scary - Rogue OAs would remain much more of a real threat.

And that's kind of a concern to using Feats, note - if you're going with Feats, then the Rogue can get them, and his OAs bring SA with them, which is actually dangerous.
 

Oh, I didn't mean use the trip on the extra AoO. I just meant they were both options to be sticky. (Which sounds like it ought to be obscene.)
 

My vote is for a brand new class. The fighter chassis simply cannot support the defender archetype. The 5e fighter is a "striker" not a "defender".

I could see a "knight" class that deals much less damage, but has a defender aura, sticky ness, and battlefield control. I just can't see all of that on the current fighter though.

Note: a valor bard using "demand", "warding bond", and other spells can make a pretty good defender. Also, the bear totem level 14 ability makes for a decent defender as well.
 


What about a feature that let the fighter take the extra attack actions as opportunity attacks? That would deal respectable damage (even if still only once per round).
 

I think this version points to followers and hirelings forming ranks for battlefield control.

The one OA and hordes of Hobgoblins at higher level make me think this, and I'm happy with that.

To change this I'd houserule that # of OA be determined by dex mod (min 1).
 

tl;dr ---> THIS.

I like the feat, and I like the idea of a battle master maneuver that adds another OA, and, heck, adding them together won't hurt. I also feel like the DMG's rules for grid combat might up the robustness of this a little more.

But here's the thing: OA's don't seem to me to be the goal, just a common tool. And they come with a big cost: more attack rolls = slower combats. ESPECIALLY out-of-turn attack rolls that might change the declared action. So if I was looking to shore up a fighter's stickiness myself, I would absolutely want doodly-squat to do with the fighter making a pile of attack rolls between her turns. I don't want my game to become a series of "but wait! (five minutes of math and rolling) OK, keep going!" "Nope, he's dead." It is a grindy, flow-killing hassle, and it might look good on paper, but it is absolutely a bear in play for everyone who is not that fighter (and sometimes for that fighter, too).

I also am not sure that "a fighter who makes as many OA's as a 4e fighter" makes sense. 5e is a different system, it's got a different flow, a different logic. Just saying "the fighter can make one OA per turn" doesn't jive with 5e's "better faster stronger more efficient" philosophy. You could do it, but it doesn't seem native, it seems bolted-on. We don't want a thousand little cuts, we want big, distinctive, meaningful, broad effects, and ideally we want those effects to make sense in the world.

So maybe we don't need to treat the symptoms, and can instead address the root. "Stickiness" in and of itself isn't the goal, right? It's just one tool that is useful (mostly in grid combat) to make the fighter an attractive target. It does this by preventing creatures who try to disengage from the fighter from doing so. The end goal we want is to make it functionally difficult for the DM to target another creature.

The ways a fighter can do this now include
  • Protection fighting style gives you an aura under which all attacks against anyone else in the aura take disadvantage.
  • Goading Attack from the Battlemaster gives a target disadvantage on all attacks against anyone else if they fail a Wis save.
  • Optionally, the Sentinel feat, which stops 1 enemy/round cold if they move and you hit, or lets you attack a critter who hit an ally back.

Pretty anemic! Protection asks everyone to bunch up, Goading Attack is two rolls to work, Sentinel is fine but "optional" and not really all that the doctor ordered just by itself.

It seems like we need
  • A better way for the fighter to prevent damage to her allies (goading attack and protection fighting style are both kind of weak sauce for that if that is what you want to define yourself to do)
  • A way for the fighter to "punish" those that attack her allies, or those that try to disengage with her.
  • And why not, a way to use more than a single reaction to do so.

To me, these fit thematically as battlemaster maneuvers. Battle masters are the students of tactics and war, with a PHD in murderology, and the ability to effectively control the flow of battle.

A fighter who wants to do this essentially wants to do the same thing that a controller-y spellcaster wants to do: shut down enemy actions. 5e treats ongoing conditions as concentration effects. So why not adopt some concentration-like mechanic to apply these effects to targets in 5e?

In fact, lets steal a different kind of mechanic to do so: stances from 4e.

So maybe something like this?

Three stances. A stance acts like concentration: while you're in the stance, you apply some effect (buff or debuff), and you can't stack effects because you can only be in one stance at a time. If someone saves against your stance, it breaks your stance and ends the effect, just like a save against a concentration spell breaks the spell. But even then, there's a lingering effect (damage like most maneuvers, or, in one case, an AC bonus, basically the inverse of Precise Attack) as a bit of a special cherry on top. Because maneuvers are more precious than spells, the fact that this concentration can't be broken by damage (wouldn't be good for melee anyway) and have those little cherries on top doesn't seem too wonky. Plus, the effects are a little more narrow than most spells (it's not exactly paralysis!).

No OA's. No breaking the reaction economy. Just a constant debuff effect: You Can't Do X (and if you do it anyway, it's gonna hurt!). Even a good table effect: roll your superiority die, and have it hang out, pre-rolled, there on the table until your enemy earns its use. :)

They make sense in the context of the world. Punisher's Stance is the "Hurt anyone and you'll regret it!" style. Intimidating Stance is "HALT OR I'LL SHOOT (or stab!)!" Protector's Stance is "I will defend you with my life, my queen!"

A fighter with these mechanics will outright STOP creatures without their wits about them in their tracks. An enemy may get the courage to break the stance, but even if it does, it'll feel some sting.

(as an aside, I could see these also potentially being Charisma saves, what with the confidence, or even maybe Dexterity saves, with dodging the fighter's weapon, but defeating fear and spatial awareness are both usually Wisdom, and both of those I think would be most applicable)
 

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