D&D 5E Avoiding the 15m workday.

[herrozerro]

Maybe some spoilers for the Lost mine of pharnderlin, I'll try to keep it a low as possible but you were warned.

So I am a player in one of my friend's 5e game (really the first time i've been one in well over two years), and I am trying to understand the "old school" vibe. We are going through the list mine of phanderlin and we just did the red brand's hideout. And I have to say we fought one monster that nearly took down my fighter with one dual claw strike, and the party wizard with some kind of mental attack. and for a 4 man party after the first monster were like ... "Uh are we supposed to leave, rest for an hour and come back?"

We trucked on, using our only healing potion on my fighter because my second wind only healed me for 3hp (low roll). and fought another set of two red brands. Low rolls meant that they didnt go down easy and my fighter ended up with 2hp, the wizard at 0 and the rogue at half.

So now we are definitely looking for a way out, we crawled back out eventually and went back to the tavern and rested up for an hour. before coming back, after which the place had been torn apart by the bugbears, apparently lighting some fires caused a dispute and there were a few survivors who we dealt with.

But the question remains, are we supposed to go in, fight a single fight or one more if we creamed the first and head back to town for an hour rest? Is this the "old school" mentality? Should we be stocking up on potions with all of our gold? What can I do to avoid this or should I just go with the flow? (I am mainly a 4e/Savage worlds player/GM so this playstyle seems foreign to me.)

TL;DR, So far in 5e, we have had several sessions where we have had about 15m of action and we are all spent, is the game designed for this? can I avoid this?

 

[Bumamgar]

You should have been 2nd level by the time you encountered the Redbrand Hideout. Not sure if that is the case for your party or not?

Bad luck on the dice definitely can make some encounters fairly 'swingy', but decent tactics (stealth, negotiation, etc) will help compensate.

I just finished running a group of 4 characters through LMoP and the 15 min workday was absolutely not an issue. Yes, a few fights had the party on the edge of their seats, really sweating things, but for the most part it was pretty balanced, with the party able to clear most of the locations without needing to take rests.

That said, my group is quite experienced, and they coordinated character builds to create a stealth-centric party (all have darkvision, no one wears heavy armor, all have stealth as a proficient skill, etc) so they tend to get the drop on most encounters, with surprise, or at least have the ability to scout things out and pick and chose when to engage.

 

[herrozerro]

You should have been 2nd level by the time you encountered the Redbrand Hideout. Not sure if that is the case for your party or not?

Bad luck on the dice definitely can make some encounters fairly 'swingy', but decent tactics (stealth, negotiation, etc) will help compensate.

I just finished running a group of 4 characters through LMoP and the 15 min workday was absolutely not an issue. Yes, a few fights had the party on the edge of their seats, really sweating things, but for the most part it was pretty balanced, with the party able to clear most of the locations without needing to take rests.

That said, my group is quite experienced, and they coordinated character builds to create a stealth-centric party (all have darkvision, no one wears heavy armor, all have stealth as a proficient skill, etc) so they tend to get the drop on most encounters, with surprise, or at least have the ability to scout things out and pick and chose when to engage.

Well we are not seal team 6, we are just running the pregens.

 

[ExploderWizard]

A straight up fair fight should be what happens when your plans fall apart.

If this is happening frequently then planning needs to improve.

 

[Bumamgar]

My understanding is that the pregens are fairly well built. Were you 2nd level for the hideout? Did your party approach via the front-door or take time to interview the townsfolk and thus learn about the secret tunnel entrance? Did you listen at doors and try to scout, use hit-and-run tactics or subterfuge? Or was it more of a kick in the doors and roll for initiative sort of experience?

Different approaches will definitely result in wildly different experiences in 5e, but the module as written has plenty of opportunity for more strategic and tactical play. I know for a fact there are quite a few sidebars and DM notes to help provide the DM with guidance in case the players attempt to bluff or negotiate their way through various encounters. In fact, with only a few exceptions, are any of the opponents setup to simply attack the adventurers on-sight.

 

[jrowland]

TL;DR, So far in 5e, we have had several sessions where we have had about 15m of action and we are all spent, is the game designed for this? can I avoid this?

1st-3rd levels are really "apprentice levels". By 4th level (if not 2nd/3rd in some cases) you'll have better ways to avoid/shrug off effects (Heavy armor master feat, Flare Cleric of Light feature - actually that is 1st level, Portent Diviner Feature, etc). Pretend like your 1st level character is actually negative 3rd level in 3E/4E/Pathfinder and you'll understand better: Yes, Run away little padawan! you are weak! I think even the designers are still trying to wrap their heads around this (see the threads on HotDQ about how deadly) in regards to adventure design (to be fair, they had to write the adventures as the rules were still being made).

Another issue is 5E expects more out of DMs. Sounds like you guys managed to go straight to the Redbrands...in a sandbox adventure you basically went to an area that is too tough for you. But it also sounds like the DM is doing well playing it dynamically and having the redbrand hideout respond (bugbears) as a result...so I'd say trust your DM in this case.

Advice:
Tell casters to not blow their spells too early. One spell per encounter (per party, not character!) unless absolutely necessary...use those pew pew cantrips more!
Use the "Help" action, and "Dodge" actions more (Dodge is great if you can use a bonus action attack: Dodge to up your defense and pew pew with the Bonus Action attack)
As a player try to be more creative in the fiction: Turn tables over for cover, roll barrels down the corridor to knock enemies over, etc. Most are simply an ability check. But also, play it more cautiously: you are fragile, and resources more limited.
Ask your DM if who consider using the monsters "average" damage number (A) but less 2 at 1st level, less 1 at 2nd level, and as-is at 3rd and up [A-(3-Level)] until we all get a handle on the system. I am doing that in HotDQ and its working out well enough.

So I don't think the 15 min workday is meant to be there, but it can certainly happen. Conserve big spells/abilities, try to avoid damage, see if your DM will pull punches a bit for now, and remember: 1st level goes quick. Suffer through it and you'll soon be in "Full" form at 3rd/4th level.

 

[herrozerro]

My understanding is that the pregens are fairly well built. Were you 2nd level for the hideout? Did your party approach via the front-door or take time to interview the townsfolk and thus learn about the secret tunnel entrance? Did you listen at doors and try to scout, use hit-and-run tactics or subterfuge? Or was it more of a kick in the doors and roll for initiative sort of experience?

Different approaches will definitely result in wildly different experiences in 5e, but the module as written has plenty of opportunity for more strategic and tactical play. I know for a fact there are quite a few sidebars and DM notes to help provide the DM with guidance in case the players attempt to bluff or negotiate their way through various encounters. In fact, with only a few exceptions, are any of the opponents setup to simply attack the adventurers on-sight.

Well here is how it went down. we were 2nd level.

We took the secret entrance, the Nothic pried our minds and attacked, taking my fighter down to 6 hp with a dual claw attack. A bunch of misses later, Im down to 3hp, the wizard is down to 6hp and the rogue is untouched. We found the jail and the two guards took out the wizard and dropped me to 2 hp after my second wind.

So two fights in we rescued the people but we are spent.

 

[jrowland]

Well here is how it went down. we were 2nd level.

We took the secret entrance, the Nothic pried our minds and attacked, taking my fighter down to 6 hp with a dual claw attack. A bunch of misses later, Im down to 3hp, the wizard is down to 6hp and the rogue is untouched. We found the jail and the two guards took out the wizard and dropped me to 2 hp after my second wind.

So two fights in we rescued the people but we are spent.

That sounds reasonable for the hideout. In many ways its like a wandering encounter when traveling overland: You have an encounter, you rest, and keep traveling. Seal Team 6 was in and out in 15 min to get Bin Laden...then they rested. That's not to say they couldn't handle a long seek and destroy through a hostile village (multiple encounters)...it is what it is. I say good job! Rest and be merry. You might not have the luxury next time!

 

[Bumamgar]

So you played it smart but the DM didn't pay close attention to the Nothic.

Specifically... The nothic is supposed to hide and watch intruders, attempting to scan their minds to discern the party's secrets. It communicates via telepathy, and if detected, it prefers to negotiate and isn't above betraying the Redbrands for the right incentive, such as the promise of food. Unless you guys simply attacked it as soon as you noticed it, that encounter had plenty of non-combat options for resolution. Heck, when my players snuck in via the tunnel, they didn't even notice the Nothic till they had explored a few of the side passages. They were a bit surprised to find it lurking about when they came back into a room they had already 'cleared'.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Use the "Help" action, and "Dodge" actions more (Dodge is great if you can use a bonus action attack: Dodge to up your defense and pew pew with the Bonus Action attack)

IIRC most bonus actions that can be used for an attack require that the attack action be taken in order to get the bonus attack. For off hand attacks and monk's martial arts this is the case. I'm not sure about other bonus attacks.