D&D 5E Cutting Words and game flow

[Mistwell]

So my parties bard leveled up and got his level 3 Cutting Words ability.

Normally, I do most of my rolling in private, mostly to occasionally fudge things so that the game flows well and to avoid being questioned/annoyed by players who ask why when the attack bonus on this goblin is +3 when the last one was +4 and other such pointless rules lawyering.

But once he got this ability the bards player asked if I would now be announcing the value of every roll so he can decide if he wants to nuke that roll BEFORE adding any modifiers and determining if it is a success. This seems like throwing a large blob of tar into every encounter and reversing some of 5es advances in playspeed. I ruled at the time that he'd just have to decide to use the ability without knowing what the roll was. It still seems quite powerful, there are plenty of tells that a particular roll is important and if you absolutely HAVE to get bang from every use of the ability just apply it to damage.

I'm still comfortable with that, just wondering if anyone has seen a clarification of the intent of the ability or play it differently.

I think there is a way to do it that doesn't interrupt the flow of the game, but still allows the bard player to gain most of the intended use of this ability.

You, as the DM, just say, "...and it looks like the orc is about to just barely get inside Rolf the fighter's defenses". And then the bard can say, "I yell, "You elf lover!" as I weave Jode's [the God of Music] power into the words.

Just give the player a hint as to how close the roll is, without being specific. I think that is a good compromise between the intent of the rule (the player should have a fair chance to know when their limited resource is likely to be of some help) and the flow of the game.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Actually, to quote the PHB:

You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll or ability check succeeds or fails, or before the creature deals its damage.

In other words, it is supposed to be based on either the raw d20 result, or used before damage is rolled.

Just as a potential point of contention on what you've stated here... I believe its possible to also argue that "deals its damage" is not when the damage die is rolled, but when it is subtracted from the victims hit point total. So that the DM would state how much damage was caused, and then the Cutting Words could reduce that total.

Only reason I bring it up is because the PH on page 196 states:

"You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target."

So there are actually three phases in attributing damage to your target-- rolling, adding, and applying. And the book doesn't specifically call out which part would be the "deals" part. Do you deal the damage when you roll the damage die? Do you deal it when you add the modifiers? Do you deal the damage when you apply to the target? The game doesn't specify.

So I think it could be quite fair for someone to determine for their table that "dealing" damage means "applying" damage, and thus the bard could use Cutting Words after the damage was rolled and totaled, but before the victim subtracted the damage from their hit point total.

Your interpretation is also completely valid... but just wanted to point out it isn't necessarily so cut and dried.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I think there is a way to do it that doesn't interrupt the flow of the game, but still allows the bard player to gain most of the intended use of this ability.

You, as the DM, just say, "...and it looks like the orc is about to just barely get inside Rolf the fighter's defenses". And then the bard can say, "I yell, "You elf lover!" as I weave Jode's [the God of Music] power into the words.

Just give the player a hint as to how close the roll is, without being specific. I think that is a good compromise between the intent of the rule (the player should have a fair chance to know when their limited resource is likely to be of some help) and the flow of the game.

That's how I would do it. I don't like much mechanical discussion at the table (unless it's to avoid some confusion, or is necessary for the game) but that doesn't mean there aren't perfect story-reasons that will give essentially the same information.

 

[dd.stevenson]

Even though I roll in the open, I still have problems with abilities that require me to wait on my player's say-so before narrating the results. I like to run my combats fast, and it really cramps my style to have to wait 5-20 seconds every roll. Whether the times add up to something significant is beside the point, for me: what matters is that it feels slow and frustrating.

Obviously there are work-arounds ("hey Larry, congrats on your new ability, when you use it remember the onus is on you to watch my rolls and jump in if you hate what you see"), but for my money I'd rather these abilities had not been included in the game.

 

[Warbringer]

Players roll all the attack dice and AC as a defense check narrating the result, so no problems here .

I like mistwell's solution

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't get hiding your rolls from the players.

Surprise rolls and rolls vs passive perception. Rolling randomly behind a screen can also keep the PCs guessing. Also one NPC might have a magic weapon and the PCs can figure out its combat bonuses rolling in front of them. I do not try and hide all my rolls from the PCs but some of them they can mind their own business.

 

[Stalker0]

You could go with teh more generous route.

Keep the roll secret, but actually tell the players if something is a hit or a miss and let them decide if they want to use the ability.

 

[Uchawi]

It is an interesting set of circumstances, because the DM has to change his or her preferred play style based on one class being in the game. You could implement the mechanic as a delayed action type setup where the bard has to declare what type things are being looked at and the DM will add the bard dice in if the condition is met. I see that as a compromise from stating what each roll is, and adding a little bit of spice to the mechanic by making the bard choose the monster and tactics when it applies.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

My advice is: stop hiding your rolls or ask your player to pick something else. There's no point in using cutting words without knowing what the result of the die roll actually is, and it becomes even more bizarre when you're ok with fudging your dice. Once you go that route, there's nothing denying you the possibility of declaring a miss as a hit, even if the player chooses to use the power.

That said, 5E is very well-balanced and, as long as you're playing by the encounter building rules, you should have no fear of letting the dice fall where they are supposed to.

 

[drjones]

I think some of you are getting pointlessly hung up on your personal buggabos about dice fudging.

Weather the roll is in private or in view pausing after each roll to look at the bard and wait for them to interrupt or not is a huge roadbump in an otherwise elegant, quick playing system. Allowing it after the result is known (and since I usually tell them what the attack value was and ask if it was a hit, also knowing how close the hit was) is a major bonus to defense that the bard is going to have many uses of past level 5. Maybe the abjurer would be similarly effective but a healing cleric would have nowhere near the ability to avoid damage completely and I think would be spending more resources and actions to heal that damage.

It's ok for PCs to kick ass but that seems rather unbalanced, which is probably why the rules call for the decision before the results are known. Giving a hint that this swing is a close one falls in the same category, the player is expending a resource that they have a good number of to completely avoid all damage on an attack with a high level of certainty.

I guess I am more inclined to nerf it a bit than to buff it in order to get around the game-slowing effect that is built in because it already seems rather powerful compared to other class abilities. If the bugbear is swinging his club at the wounded wizard and the bard has a chance to possibly but not certainly keep the hit from happening that seems like it's still a potent ability, even if the bugbear ends up rolling a 1. Either way, the odds were tipped in the wizards favor. And narrating who is attacking who is already part of the normal flow of play.