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D&D 5E D&D 5e death and consequences?

You can spend your found gold and other gems on purchasing 300gp diamonds pretty easy. And gold is easy to come by if the published adventures and organized play scenarios are the standard.

Assuming there's a supply of diamonds, which would be a question of campaign and game world design.

I wouldn't worry too much about 2nd lifes being too common myself, but I give it that it demands DM action and adjudication to scale it to the desired availability.
 

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If you look at the rules for death and the Resurrection spell in the book all it takes when you die in the game is 1,000 gold pieces to buy the diamond that is consumed by the spell and appropriate cash to pay NPC for the 7th. lvl spell for casting. You can do this as needed with no consequences. So whenever a character in my game dies and they can get together the funds to raise their fallen comrade how should I persuade them that death has real consequences? You have up to 100 years to do this too!

I suggest deleting raise dead, and true resurrection, and change revivify to 7th level. Also, lingering wounds module is coming in DMG, might be things you can lift from there to apply to raise dead style magic too.

I would have personally liked it better if raise dead etc had the old school -1 con permanently on being raised. Perhaps that will be an optional rule in DMG. I hope so.
 
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You're all going after the wrong problem, as I see it.

The monetary cost, whatever it may be and in whatever form, is - in the end - trivial.

What is missing from 5e's death rules (so far) is any permanent or quasi-permanent consequences to the revived character. And that to me is where the true problem is. Being off form for a few days is nowhere near enough; most raises aren't done in the field in any case but are instead done when back in town, so no penalty there at all as the revivee recovers during the same days used by the rest of the party to divide and sell the treasure.

There is no chance the revival will fail (as in, no 1e-like resurrection survival roll).
There is no permanent loss of (1e-2e Con, 3e level).

Death here becomes no more than a monetary cost, and probably a trivial one at mid-high levels.

Lan-"players of old feared level drain, so it (wrongly) came out of the game; now they fear character death and thus with every edition we see it weakened"-efan
 

There's a reason there's no monetary cost is given for spells above 2nd level cast by NPCs in the PHB.

The 'cost' discussed there is favours and good will - you don't earn that as easily.


I'm hoping the DMG suggests the divine spell limits from the 1st ed DMG.
Spells of 1-2nd level were given automatically.
3-5th by a divine agent, who may not always grant them. Not for raising people they had no reason to raise beyond being friends with the cleric in question.

Higher level spells were directly from the deity in question, and had always to be asked for and given a reason.

The exact details are not important - the point is that deities care about what their powerful clerics do with their mighty spells.

Gold might well not be enough. Dutiful worship or a quest for the god might be.
 

Gold might well not be enough. Dutiful worship or a quest for the god might be.

And this--with all respect to Lan-*-efan and those who agree with him ;) --is the sort of "consequence" I want to see. I don't like seeing a PC permanently penalized. You wind up either with a penalty that doesn't matter, or with a player who feels punished for raising their old character rather than creating a new one.

Instead, what I want to see is certain spells--the resurrection-family first and foremost--come with chances of failure and with price tags that aren't measured in numbers. The caster and/or recipient must do something on behalf of the god or Church--something meaningful and difficult. Maybe it's not just one thing; maybe it's a semi-permanent bond, where the character must regularly answer the call. Maybe they have to find someone to willingly take the deceased's place.

(I love the 13th Age resurrection rules. I'm seriously tempted to import them to 5e.)
 

You're all going after the wrong problem, as I see it.

The monetary cost, whatever it may be and in whatever form, is - in the end - trivial.

What is missing from 5e's death rules (so far) is any permanent or quasi-permanent consequences to the revived character. And that to me is where the true problem is. Being off form for a few days is nowhere near enough; most raises aren't done in the field in any case but are instead done when back in town, so no penalty there at all as the revivee recovers during the same days used by the rest of the party to divide and sell the treasure.

There is no chance the revival will fail (as in, no 1e-like resurrection survival roll).
There is no permanent loss of (1e-2e Con, 3e level).

Death here becomes no more than a monetary cost, and probably a trivial one at mid-high levels.

Lan-"players of old feared level drain, so it (wrongly) came out of the game; now they fear character death and thus with every edition we see it weakened"-efan
Agreed, 100%.

Now, I know that someone will see those changes as an improvement. D&D is, after all, a game, and permanent penalties are usually seen as not fun.

OTOH, fear of PC death does lead to more "realistic" gameplay in the sense that that fear is a handy substitute for a survival instinct. That makes a PC more than a mere piece in a boardgame.

To me, coming back from the dead SHOULD have consequences. However, in the light of myriad volumes of fantasy literature out there that touch on such a subject, perhaps that consequence should not be a single outcome hard baked into the rules, but rather, something more fluid. And maybe not limited to the target of the power, but also to the caster.

Perhaps the spell or whatever read raising mechanism would state that using it would say the returned character (and possibly the caster) now has N Minor and/or Major Consequences. Examples of said consequences would be listed in a non-comprehensive section of the DMG, so the DM could tailor the effects to the spell used, the nature of the caster, the campaign world, the manner of death and whatever else the DM felt relevant. And- importantly- not all consequences would necessarily be negative, or at least, not purely so. Perhaps the consequence results in an increase in the power of the returned PC...but simultaneously, he has some magical taboo that affects his actions. For example, the returned PC becomes a bound thrall to the person who brought them back. He is compelled to aid his benefactor in all situations.

And, to keep the fear of PC death "alive", the player wouldn't necessarily be aware of what the PC's Consequence was...

(Edit: I see the Mouse has similar thoughts.)

FWIW, Lanefan, I'm trying something with level drain in 3.X: instead of all the usual math-intensive consequences of level drain, I just impose conditions.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?335683-Brainstorming-Revising-Energy-Drain-for-3-X
 
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The problem people have with resurrection spells is that they don't quite understand the metaphysics of the soul's interaction with a host. Here's a documentary on it to explain it further:

[video=youtube;D9tAKLTktY0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9tAKLTktY0[/video]
 

To me, coming back from the dead SHOULD have consequences. However, in the light of myriad volumes of fantasy literature out there that touch on such a subject, perhaps that consequence should not be a single outcome hard baked into the rules, but rather, something more fluid. And maybe not limited to the target of the power, but also to the caster.

Perhaps the spell or whatever read raising mechanism would state that using it would say the returned character (and possibly the caster) now has N Minor and/or Major Consequences. Examples of said consequences would be listed in a non-comprehensive section of the DMG, so the DM could tailor the effects to the spell used, the nature of the caster, the campaign world, the manner of death and whatever else the DM felt relevant. And- importantly- not all consequences would necessarily be negative, or at least, not purely so. Perhaps the consequence results in an increase in the power of the returned PC...but simultaneously, he has some magical taboo that affects his actions. For example, the returned PC becomes a bound thrall to the person who brought them back. He is compelled to aid his benefactor in all situations.

And, to keep the fear of PC death "alive", the player wouldn't necessarily be aware of what the PC's Consequence was...
After a fashion, we've already done just this; except in true 1e style it's random.

We call them "death effects"; they're on a table, and anyone coming back to life rolls d% against this table. 01-50 nothing happens, but anything over 50 and you've hit a death effect. So far we've got about 20 different ones, here's a few:

- character gains permanent invisibility to undead
- character loses 10% of body weight and becomes slightly "ghostly", a bit transparent around the edges
- character gains enemity against (or affinity for) undead and is permanently +2 (or -2) to hit them and +2 (or -2) on attempts to turn or control them
- character comes back with a quest attached
- character gains (or loses) proficiency with something - a weapon, a language, etc.
- character comes back with alignment diametrically opposite to what it was before death
- character cannot approach within one mile of place of death beign revived from, and dies again if it does
- character's spirit is marked to a deity and will be claimed by said deity on next death (thus cannot be revived again)

Lan-"bizarre event in my game: the only time a character has ever been revived *by* an undead it came back with the 'invisibility to undead' death effect"-efan
 

It also means that diamonds become one of the most important resources and that every diamond mine is likely to become a war zone.

Oh, this would be a consequence when and if adventurers die ever so often. Other affluent people ("Mummy, mummy, I need a diamond! Daddy was stabbed in the pub!") could of course have an influence, maybe monopolizing the diamonds and driving prices through the roof.

Btw, has anyone given the curious wording ("a flawless gem for at least xyz gp") some thought? If the usability of a diamond for this purpose is coupled to its price, then after a war of plague the demands of size and quality of diamonds would be reduced. Market forces drive the price up, so for the necessary amount of gold only lower quality stuff is now available. RAW transform these inferior gems now intofunctional ones.

Even weirder would be a situation where a party with a corpse comes into town only to find the jeweler with tiny shards. "Hey, please accept our 500 gp for your inferior merchandise! We need a 500 gp diamond."
 

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