D&D 5E First Session of HotDQ - WOW, what a meatgrinder

[Sacrosanct]

Hopefully, someone else can speak to the Encounters expectation, because I just don't know. I certainly understand what you're saying, but, especially with Episode 1, it seems players playing the Encounters version of the adventure will just have to accept they'll miss stuff and the pacing will be weird.

Thaumaturge.

Having DM'd encounters, and based on Mearls' response to a similar question a while ago, you have leeway in the AL sessions. You only need to hit the main plot points, but how you do it is up to you. You can also skip any side quest you want as well. It's just the general main plot line that has to be a shared experience.

 

[National Acrobat]

Totally related to the topic, but a bit off.

One of the guys in our group is planning on running it, mainly so we can see if 5e is something we'll like. After reading about the Campaign in a number of places online, my main question is, how scalable is it? Our RL group has 12 people in it. Is there a way to make it more challenging for large parties, or is it run as is? From what I've been reading, with 11 pcs we're probably going to have an easier time with parts of this compared to what is considered a 'normal' sized group.

 

[Boarstorm]

How do you figure. Your extra monk attack doesn't get ability modifier damage to it unless you also have the two-weapon feat. My interpretation is that it's treated like any other bonus off hand attack.

On the contrary.

The monk's bonus unarmed strike is distinct from two-weapon fighting. There's nothing in the rules that state you shouldn't add your ability modifier, unlike two-weapon fighting which explicitly calls it out.

 

[Thaumaturge]

The monk's bonus unarmed strike is distinct from two-weapon fighting. There's nothing in the rules that state you shouldn't add your ability modifier, unlike two-weapon fighting which explicitly calls it out.

This is how I read it.

When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Joe Liker]

Totally related to the topic, but a bit off.

One of the guys in our group is planning on running it, mainly so we can see if 5e is something we'll like. After reading about the Campaign in a number of places online, my main question is, how scalable is it? Our RL group has 12 people in it. Is there a way to make it more challenging for large parties, or is it run as is? From what I've been reading, with 11 pcs we're probably going to have an easier time with parts of this compared to what is considered a 'normal' sized group.

I'm not a fan of enormous groups -- individuals tend not to get much spotlight time when not in combat, and there's a lot of downtime between turns when in combat.

If you run a published adventure with 11 PCs, you've got two problems -- extremely easy combats and slower leveling. At some point, of course, the slow leveling is going to make the combats more challenging, so maybe this isn't such a big deal. But you should expect more PC deaths than normal when it does happen.

You can, of course, double the number of enemies in most fights, but your combats are going to take forever. If you're used to that with your 12-member group, I guess it's not an issue. But keep in mind that the first few rounds of any such combat are going to be extremely punishing for the people taking the hits. At low levels, they'll definitely need to play very defensively.

Seems to me, your best bet is two split into two groups of six. Maybe that's not how your group likes to roll, but it does make the most sense for the game. You can still have fun comparing notes between sessions.

 

[Joe Liker]

On the contrary.

The monk's bonus unarmed strike is distinct from two-weapon fighting. There's nothing in the rules that state you shouldn't add your ability modifier, unlike two-weapon fighting which explicitly calls it out.

Indeed, if unarmed strike were no different from two-weapon fighting, there would be no reason to state in the monk rules that you can make the extra attack -- as you could already do that under the two-weapon fighting rules.

 

[Desalus]

Totally related to the topic, but a bit off.

One of the guys in our group is planning on running it, mainly so we can see if 5e is something we'll like. After reading about the Campaign in a number of places online, my main question is, how scalable is it? Our RL group has 12 people in it. Is there a way to make it more challenging for large parties, or is it run as is? From what I've been reading, with 11 pcs we're probably going to have an easier time with parts of this compared to what is considered a 'normal' sized group.

What RPG do you play that is actually fun to play with 11 people in one party? It's hard for me to imagine playing with a group that large and having a good time too.

I wholeheartedly agree with Joe Liker. Even if you do scale the adventure up to challenge a party size of 11, it will not be fun. The system is optimized for a party size of four, so if you want an enjoyable experience find someone else who is willing to DM and split the group into two.

 

[Thank Dog]

Statistically, you're only hitting kobolds 2/3 of the time, give or take (AC 12).

Not sure where you're getting that figure from. Short of making a completely inept character, each PC should have a +5 to hit.

And they have 5 hp. Unless every one of your PCs has a +4 ability modifier (and even then), I don't see how you're taking out 4 or 6 kobolds in the very first round.

With five players, some of whom (like the monk) have multiple attacks, it's pretty much a given. You don't need a +4 ability modifier. Most PC's will be getting a +3 damage bonus to most of their attacks. Even a d4 has an average of 2.5, making the minimum average damage 5.5.

Hell, for us it sure did. With advantage, and a +4 base to hit, they were hitting us nearly every time. Did all of your PCs have AC 18 or something?

Nope, but the ones who did tended to be the ones who rushed into melee whilst the others stayed at range.

How do you figure. Your extra monk attack doesn't get ability modifier damage to it unless you also have the two-weapon feat. My interpretation is that it's treated like any other bonus off hand attack. So how does 1d4 dmg take out a 5 hp kobold, assuming you're hitting with every attack anyway?

Sorry, but you'd be wrong about this. This has been clarified and even before then, the consensus was very strongly in favour of the monk getting their ability bonus damage.

Yeah, or wiz tried burning hands too. Took out two kobolds that were in range, but because of that ended up in the front line (since you have to get close) and got skewered by the other remaining ones. A AC12, 6HP PC didn't last long against kobolds that attacked at advantage.

In a number of the encounters it says how the creatures are organised, like at the front or back door of the temple, or at the Sally Port gate. There are multiple opportunities for bunched AoE.

Also, that's great for one encounter, but what about all the others? You can only do those things once.

Short rests are allowed. HD healing, healing pots (bought at level 1 with starting gold... always a smart idea), and powers renewed. The warlock, for instance, is a powerhouse after every short rest.

Eh, I've run/played in it four times so far. It's a small sample size. Perhaps the fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth times will be a disaster. I doubt it, but we'll see.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Not sure where you're getting that figure from. Short of making a completely inept character, each PC should have a +5 to hit.

I said 2/3 of the time. If you have to roll a 7 or higher to hit on a d20, that's roughly 2/3 of the time. that's how I got my figure from.

With five players, some of whom (like the monk) have multiple attacks, it's pretty much a given. You don't need a +4 ability modifier. Most PC's will be getting a +3 damage bonus to most of their attacks. Even a d4 has an average of 2.5, making the minimum average damage 5.5.

You said they all went down in one round. That means you've never rolled a 1 for damage or missed? How convenient...

Short rests are allowed. HD healing, healing pots (bought at level 1 with starting gold... always a smart idea), and powers renewed. The warlock, for instance, is a powerhouse after every short rest.

.

You're in the middle of a town getting raided, and you're allowing your players to rest for an hour whenever they want?

I think I see the problem here, and why you think they were easy encounters.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm very curious to know how your parties survived if you played it exactly as written. To me there just seems to be way too many encounters with no rests for that to even work (unless your party was full of healers).

We had a group of 6: bard, cleric, fighter, ranger, rogue, wizard. 2 healers (eventually 3 with the ranger). The DM said that she beefed up the encounters because of our numbers. We ran through 2 encounters before the keep, 1 in the tunnel, 5 outside again, the dragon, and the duel. We beat them all (except the dragon of course). But, to be fair, some of the reason for that is Lost Mines of Phandelver. We played one 7 hour session of LMoP and discovered that Stealth and Surprise is huge in 5E. So, 4 PCs had stealth (even the fighter who offset some of his armor's disadvantage), the cleric had martial weapons and heavy armor, the fighter had Heavy Armor Master feat, and most PCs were trying to either use ranged attacks, or two weapon attacking (it took a while to convince the fighter and cleric to not use two handed weapons and use weapon and shield because most of the foes dropped so easily with a single one handed weapon attack). We went around sneaking in the dark and took out about a third of most encounters during a surprise round. I think 4 or possibly 5 PCs went unconscious in those 9 fights. And we tricked the half dragon into fighting us all. Without group stealth and surprise, we would have never done as well.

As a side note, the DM changed the surprise rules from Passive Perception, to perception rolls, just so that some creatures on the surprised side might not be surprised (regardless of whether it is NPCs, or PCs). Surprise is so powerful that this houserule just seems a bit less potent.