D&D 5E Character play vs Player play

[Mark CMG]

but it's not really, the parents always existed (inless you just assumed all characters just walked out fo the mist fully grown) what makes the parents, friends, family, and other assumed things not character resources?

It's a matter of timing. Just like the player cannot suddenly and definitively say that there are crates in an alley unless it had been previously established. Though certainly, if it makes sense in the particular setting, a GM might give it a random chance of being the case, or in the case of it being the only option for being the character's hometown. Are there crates and parents in the setting? Most likely. Does the character have control over where those things are in a (trad?) RPG where a player doesn't have authorial control? Nope. Can the player say there are crates in an alley or parents in a town no matter what the GM has determined? That's player authorial control over the setting and not really a traditional RPG mechanic. And, as Lanefan has pointed out, the GM might well have established a place for those NPC parents in his setting or that a town keeps its alleys crate-free because of rats or whatnot, not that the reasons need to specifically be those.

 

[Mark CMG]

Walk me through this. How does the paladin gain his mount? What does the paladin do to initiate the quest to get the mount? How does the paladin know when he can do so? When my magic user wants a familiar, I cast Find Familiar - that's a character resource. What, specifically, does the paladin do?

Those are setting details that are up to the GM.

 

[Celtavian]

That is without a doubt a storytelling game built with the D&D RPG system but done in a way that really presents very little player authorial control that matters. I see plenty of it but have never been satisfied with a RPG where the player character has so little agency or a storytelling game where the player has so little authorial control. Granted, I am just as unsatisfied when I game with a GM who doesn't have a fleshed out setting to explore or cannot improvise when players take a left turn or "go off the map." But, in an RPG, to be lead through a string of scenes by the GM who has predetermined the outcome would feel far too restrictive.

What do you mean no authorial control? Character building is a powerful element in a story. Their decisions drive a story. Their development is what makes a story interesting. The story doesn't exist without characters driving it forward. A DM could write out a great adventure, but he would have nothing to do without the characters playing it. How is winning battles or any other character interaction not authorial control?

Character background and roleplaying choices drive my adventure development all the time. For example, if a player spends the time to write a background where his parents were killed by a particular demon, you can bet I incorporate that demon into the game. If a character decides to be a serial killer on the side, I incorporate that into the game. Just because the combat challenges in an adventure are usually plotted, does not mean every aspect of a character's life is plotted by the DM. Players engage in other activities all the time. As a DM you must be able to incorporate them into the game to make the world seem real for the player.

Kingmaker was a great example of this. The barbarian king spent a great deal of time drinking and whoring. He also wrote a background where he was sent by a foreign power to create a kingdom. I incorporated both elements into the story by having his bastards show up all the time requesting money or asserting their claim to the throne. I had the kingdom go to war with the foreign power when the barbarian refused to be a vassal.

It is lazy DMing to not allow players authorial control. Why even have them make a background or roleplay out anything if you don't intend to incorporate it into the story? I even had a bard ridiculing the barbarian king with bawdy tales of his lustful encounters. I did this for all the characters incorporating their roleplaying choices into NPC interactions, combats, and the enemies peppered throughout an adventure.

Players definitely have authorial control if a DM pays attention and incorporates the players role-playing choices, backgrounds, and other aspects of character into the overall story progression. But that is something a premade adventure cannot do for a DM. A DM that too rigidly follows either his own creation or a premade creation isn't doing his job, which is to incorporate character into the plot and setting he has built. Players develop character, which in turn affects plot and setting.

Cooperative story telling with multiple authors adding their bits to it. Why would you think players have no authorial control? Is this based on personal experience with DMs that don't incorporate your choices into the overall story arc? I guess because I take such pains to do so, that my particular game may be unique. I know many DMs I've played with don't do things like I do. I like to think that there are some that do. I don't feel get as much out of a game if you don't let your characters affect the world and plot as well as have subplots of their own creation whether its a romance, rejuvenating a city, or some other element of character that leads to changes into the overall plot and story.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It's a matter of timing. Just like the player cannot suddenly and definitively say that there are crates in an alley unless it had been previously established. Though certainly, if it makes sense in the particular setting, a GM might give it a random chance of being the case, or in the case of it being the only option for being the character's hometown. Are there crates and parents in the setting? Most likely. Does the character have control over where those things are in a (trad?) RPG where a player doesn't have authorial control? Nope.

you really lost me here, I'm not sure if you ignored the example, or if one of us is not under standing the other.

]

DM: You walk into the city of Sheni, it's an elven city of splendor.

PC playing a half elf: Cool, can I have lived here with my semi noble family as a kid

DM: Sure

PC playing half elf: Cool, we can stay at my place in town...

The player ASKED if he could have lived here, then he did assume his parents still did... how is that anthing other then traditional role playing?

Does the character have control over where those things are in a (trad?) RPG where a player doesn't have authorial control?

I really don't get this either, If I wrote my background as having grown up in the ciry of sheni and my parents still live there today, or in the other example that I was part of the ninja clan out side the fortified city that is OK, but if I leave my origin vauge "I have parents somewhere" or "I'm a ninja somehow" then want to dial in the detail later that's wrong?

I have never meet anyone who has a problem with this... I mean sometimes the DM could sya "No half elves wouldn't be royalty here, then I would come back with "What about cusins fromt eh elf side?"

 

[Mark CMG]

What do you mean no authorial control?

The quotes are "very little player authorial control that matters" and "the player has so little authorial control." Now, this is in regard to this being run as a storytelling game, so if we examine it in this light, how much authorial control does a player have in a "game" where the GM has determined the scenes through which the players must travel and the GM has also determined the outcome (or even a limited number of potential outcomes) in advance? It fairly well strips away the "game" side of "storytelling game."

 

[Hussar]

Those are setting details that are up to the GM.

I did edit the post your replied to, so there is a bit more meat there. But, I'm thinking that this is a pretty fruitless discussion. You refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary of your point, so, I'm pretty sure we're done here. I'm certainly not going to convince you of anything and I could continue citing examples until the cows come home and you'll just keep moving the goal posts.

Now, this is in regard to this being run as a storytelling game,

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...cter-play-vs-Player-play/page28#ixzz3HvmBS98F

No one is claiming that these games were run as story telling games. Good grief, is that what you're arguing against? What we're telling you is that trad games had story telling elements right from the get go and story telling games grew out of those roots. You have repeatedly claimed that there are no story telling elements in trad RPG's. That's a very contentious point to take because there is a fair body of evidence that says that there actually were quite a few story telling elements in early RPG's. That you personally didn't use them doesn't mean that they didn't exist.

 

[Mark CMG]

you really lost me here, I'm not sure if you ignored the example, or if one of us is not under standing the other.

Well, you say that "the parents always existed" but only in the abstract (as far as the player is concerned) and in your example they don't exist in the setting until the player has decided they do and specifically in a place where they add a character resource. It's not the character seeking out his parents within the setting to find a place to sleep for free, it is the player deciding his character is low on wealth (or doesn't want to become lower on wealth) and the player deciding the parents will be placed somewhere in the setting to alleviate established resource level. And, as mentioned, the parents are NPCs and the GM might well already have a place in the setting for them.

 

[Mark CMG]

You refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary of your point, so, I'm pretty sure we're done here.

Refusing to accept "evidence" and refuting "evidence" are very different things but I do agree this has become a "pretty fruitless discussion."

No one is claiming that these games were run as story telling games.

In regard to Celtavan's post, I very much am saying that he gave the example of an RPG being run as a storytelling game with very limited player authorial control.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Well, you say that "the parents always existed" but only in the abstract (as far as the player is concerned) and in your example they don't exist in the setting until the player has decided they do and specifically in a place where they add a character resource. It's not the character seeking out his parents within the setting to find a place to sleep for free, it is the player deciding his character is low on wealth (or doesn't want to become lower on wealth) and the player deciding the parents will be placed somewhere in the setting to alleviate established resource level. And, as mentioned, the parents are NPCs and the GM might well already have a place in the setting for them.

But the player ASKED THE DAMN DM... he didn't twirl his evil player mustache and say "HA HA Now you are forced to do what I say, and I say my parents are here and I get free room and board" also... really free room and board in a D&D game really even a big deal?

so again I can only assume instead of reading the example and commenting on it you instead made up your own senerio

in your example they don't exist in the setting until the player has decided they do and specifically in a place where they add a character resource.

that's crazy talk... they exsit in the setting, but no one knows where... the DM and player TOGATHER work out where, and they were always a resources just like in my comic book example up thread the fantastic four and avengers always exsisted and where always a resource spidy could call on, but in the stories so far they hadn't been. They didn't spring up out of no where, this is just the first time they are important...

And, as mentioned, the parents are NPCs and the GM might well already have a place in the setting for them

then he would "gasp" have to say so... I know communication is super hard in a game of friends around a table, but again, it is just a group of friends talking...

alternate example:

DM: You walk into the city of Sheni, it's an elven city of splendor.

PC playing a half elf: Cool, can I have lived here with my semi noble family as a kid

DM: not really, there aren't half elf nobles around this city, except the occasional bastard

PC playing half elf: Ok, cool, then can I have an elven aunt and cusins, I just want to say we have a place to crash

DM: Sure, not a problem, you can have them be minor Merchant/old money not quite nobles.

PC playing half elf: My character says "Hey we can stay with my AUnt and Uncle, they love company, and own a shipping company over by the docks..."

again no diffrent

 

[Mark CMG]

But the player ASKED THE DAMN DM...

( . . . )

so again I can only assume instead of reading the example and commenting on it you instead made up your own senerio

Oh, indeed. My apologies. If the GM is asked if the parents might live in that town, then by all means it is up to the GM to say one way or another, if the character possesses that knowledge. This can be done by randomizing it or based on the above mentioned restrictions, i.e. it can be done by GM fiat if it simply makes sense for the setting (maybe the only place in the setting where they *can* exist), or the GM might respond in the negative because he has already established where the NPC parents are within the setting. My apologies, again, for misreading you as it is true that in an RPG the players can always ask if their character has some particular setting knowledge or ask the details of the setting that is within the perception of their character.