D&D 5E (2014) Dispel Evil and Good cleric spell 5th level in use

[billd91]

I think the trick is, which was well noted above. This spell is not offensive, it’s a recovery spell. It is removing a condition from a character (in this case banishment).

That is why it doesn’t have a save or attack

Unfortunately, by simply auto-ending possession, it side-steps completely the iconic battle of wills between the exorcist and the possessing entity. While forcing a save or requiring a touch attack doesn't do very much for that idea, it at least conveys the idea that the exorcising effort is opposed by the possessing entity and can fail the first attempt.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Unfortunately, by simply auto-ending possession, it side-steps completely the iconic battle of wills between the exorcist and the possessing entity. While forcing a save or requiring a touch attack doesn't do very much for that idea, it at least conveys the idea that the exorcising effort is opposed by the possessing entity and can fail the first attempt.

I personally would have given the boss immunity to this spell until certain win conditions are met.

Casting "Solve Problem" with one of your many spell slots that recharge after a nap is incredibly unsatisfying from my perspective, and one of the reasons why D&D magic is just kind of bland. Like if you open a room in a dungeon and encounter d4 hags and some nameless witch turns you into a newt, I'm OK with Remove Curse just working. But if its a named witch, there's going to be a little side quest.

 

[aco175]

I personally would have given the boss immunity to this spell until certain win conditions are met.

Casting "Solve Problem" with one of your many spell slots that recharge after a nap is incredibly unsatisfying from my perspective, and one of the reasons why D&D magic is just kind of bland. Like if you open a room in a dungeon and encounter d4 hags and some nameless witch turns you into a newt, I'm OK with Remove Curse just working. But if its a named witch, there's going to be a little side quest.

I thought about just not letting it work on this ghost, but also I did not want to player to not try something which was a good idea on his part. There is a lot of spells that just bypass things though. some of this is that you are or are becoming one of the most powerful people in the region and can do great things.

I think it working the 2nd time he tried it made the encounter better or more satisfying for the players.

 

[James Gasik]

Unfortunately, by simply auto-ending possession, it side-steps completely the iconic battle of wills between the exorcist and the possessing entity. While forcing a save or requiring a touch attack doesn't do very much for that idea, it at least conveys the idea that the exorcising effort is opposed by the possessing entity and can fail the first attempt.

Sure but ok, how many spell slots can the player actually come up with here?

D&D magic is magic bullets fired from a gun. And often, there are situations that only have magical solutions- I'm not saying that's great design, but that's just how the game is. You ask a character to end possession, there's precious few ways you can do that. If you swing and miss, then what?

It's not like this is some static ability you can employ turn after turn in this back and forth battle like you'd see in other media. I can understand not wanting to instantly solve problems, but again, that's how D&D magic works.

You'd have to redesign the magic system from the ground up to do it any other way. Make "dispel possession" some kind of Ritual that is performed once you have the possessed victim tied up or something.

I once had this situation where another player was petrified in combat. I tried to use Greater Restoration to fix the problem, because that's what the spell does. DM tells me "oh, it doesn't work, you can't de-petrify someone until you kill the monster that did it".

So great, now that player has to roleplay a statue and hope we kill the bad guys so we can get him back into the game- oh wait, we can't, because I just wasted the Greater Restoration I was going to use, so even when we win, he gets to wait until I can rest and get the material component. All because it wouldn't be "fun" to let something actually work?

I mean how fun is it for the player, who just happens to have the right tool for the job when the situation comes up, to be told "nah, bro, can't let you do that, it wouldn't be exciting".

 

[billd91]

You'd have to redesign the magic system from the ground up to do it any other way. Make "dispel possession" some kind of Ritual that is performed once you have the possessed victim tied up or something.

Well, no you wouldn't. The exorcise 4th level cleric spell back in AD&D largely fit that role. And it's really just specialized ritual spell in general.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Sure but ok, how many spell slots can the player actually come up with here?

D&D magic is magic bullets fired from a gun. And often, there are situations that only have magical solutions- I'm not saying that's great design, but that's just how the game is. You ask a character to end possession, there's precious few ways you can do that. If you swing and miss, then what?

It's not like this is some static ability you can employ turn after turn in this back and forth battle like you'd see in other media. I can understand not wanting to instantly solve problems, but again, that's how D&D magic works.

You'd have to redesign the magic system from the ground up to do it any other way. Make "dispel possession" some kind of Ritual that is performed once you have the possessed victim tied up or something.

You don't need to design the magic system from the ground up. You design the boss with immunity that needs to be overcome. You telegraph it. You have the dragon show up, the priest casts "Solve Problem", the dragon persona emerges long enough to tell them "its too strong" or something and lets them flee or flies away before the ghost resumes control. The party does some research, discovers the ghost's fetters or something, then goes and destroys them to weaken it. THEN I win can work. At least someone did some work to earn the payoff.

If I was the caster I'd find that more satisfying than popping an "I win" button. Definitely more satisfying than watching someone else cast "I win"

When I need ritual components on the spot and I dont have something planned, I rope the players in. "OK, you need something that is two of the following: time consuming, expensive, or dangerous to obtain. You need something common that is one of these. What are they? "

I once had this situation where another player was petrified in combat. I tried to use Greater Restoration to fix the problem, because that's what the spell does. DM tells me "oh, it doesn't work, you can't de-petrify someone until you kill the monster that did it".

So great, now that player has to roleplay a statue and hope we kill the bad guys so we can get him back into the game- oh wait, we can't, because I just wasted the Greater Restoration I was going to use, so even when we win, he gets to wait until I can rest and get the material component. All because it wouldn't be "fun" to let something actually work?

There's a bit of a difference between letting a player participate in the fight, and winning a boss encounter with "Solve Problem". If I wanted to make the petrification meaningful and use that, I'd have gone with the blood of the creature that petrified them, so someone has to hit it, get it to the cleric, who then casts the spell. I would probably also tell the caster what they need or at minimum or refund the slot.

I mean how fun is it for the player, who just happens to have the right tool for the job when the situation comes up, to be told "nah, bro, can't let you do that, it wouldn't be exciting".

Lets not pretend it took a lot of skill to memorize Solve Problem. There was probably a long rest in between knowing there was a ghost possessed dragon and encountering the ghost possessed dragon.

 

[James Gasik]

You don't need to design the magic system from the ground up. You design the boss with immunity that needs to be overcome. You telegraph it. You have the dragon show up, the priest casts "Solve Problem", the dragon persona emerges long enough to tell them "its too strong" or something and lets them flee or flies away before the ghost resumes control. The party does some research, discovers the ghost's fetters or something, then goes and destroys them to weaken it. THEN I win can work. At least someone did some work to earn the payoff.

If I was the caster I'd find that more satisfying than popping an "I win" button. Definitely more satisfying than watching someone else cast "I win"

When I need ritual components on the spot and I dont have something planned, I rope the players in. "OK, you need something that is two of the following: time consuming, expensive, or dangerous to obtain. You need something common that is one of these. What are they? "



There's a bit of a difference between letting a player participate in the fight, and winning a boss encounter with "Solve Problem". If I wanted to make the petrification meaningful and use that, I'd have gone with the blood of the creature that petrified them, so someone has to hit it, get it to the cleric, who then casts the spell. I would probably also tell the caster what they need or at minimum or refund the slot.



Lets not pretend it took a lot of skill to memorize Solve Problem. There was probably a long rest in between knowing there was a ghost possessed dragon and encountering the ghost possessed dragon.

So what, anytime it is dramatically appropriate, we should just pretend the D&D magic system doesn't exist? "Yeah, uh, it's really important that you can't interact with this plot point in any way until it's dramatically appropriate, and I don't know why you'd want to, that can't possibly be satisfying."

I don't want to get too absurd on this point, but that's a slippery slope. "Hey guys, let's play D&D, where you get these cool abilities, but don't use them if it would derail the story I'm trying to tell".

It's like why I don't even bother to prepare DIvination spells anymore, because on the off chance they could tell me something useful, the DM likely doesn't want me to know what that is because it would derail their campaign.