D&D 5E Gamehole Con Live Tweeting Perkins Panel

pemerton

Legend
4e was a drastic departure in many ways from all editions that came before.
4e was such a drastic departure from 3.X it kicked 3.X fans in the face.....

4e was a larger departure from 3.x then 3.x was from 2e
they published a game that was completely different than any previous editions of D&D.

<snip>

4.0 has no more in common with classic D&D than Palladium Fantasy does.
D&D 4e was doomed by the fact it was not D&D except for the brand.

D&D 4e was a completely different game than 3.5e
These claims about "difference" are contentious. For instance, I've played plenty of B/X, and more than plenty of AD&D, and I don't find 4e to be a "drastic departure" that is "completely different from any previous edition". Like those earlier editions it has fighters, clerics, thieves and magic-users (wizards). It has a default story arc that begins with goblins and bandits and ends with demons and devils and their overlords on other planes. It has to hit rolls and hit points.

It expands the imposition of effects, as a consequence of combat success, from spell casting to martial combat but that is not very confusing, and not unprecedented either: the Wilderness Survival Guide had rules for bleeding wounds, and one of the Appendices in Unearthed Arcana had rules for stunning enemies by hitting them over the head with a chair.

I don't have any experience with 3.5, but my limited experience with 3E suggests that 4e is no more different from it than 3E is from 2nd ed AD&D.

The labelling of things that have always been part of D&D - like different sorts of abilities with different recharge periods - as at-will, encounter or daily powers doesn't seem to me any very big change, no bigger than (for instance) 3E turning non-weapon proficiencies into a mixture of skills and feats. It's a change in label, but not in play.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person, even the only person in this thread, who sees the issue of difference this way. Which means that I don't see how difference is a very useful basis for explaining what happened with 4e and Paizo. You would need to identify some other factor which explains why some people think 4e is different from what came before, and why others don't.

And that explanation is unlikely to be that one group is more insightful than the other, or that one group has a better grasp than the other on the essence of D&D.

WotC/Hasbro should never be able to take the position that their customers don't matter as they did with 4E.
Well, I'm one of their customers and they didn't take the position that I don't matter. They published material that I wanted to purchase, and I did so.

4E was a poorly designed game that alienated a massive number of players. One of the main reasons was the magic system
Even the monster design with legendary and lair actions gets the creative DM juices flowing. You can finally make an evil priest enemy that can take advantage of his temple as a weapon or the evil artifact item his god gave him in a mechanically meaningful way. I spent some time designing a nasty evil priest with a temple that will make life most unpleasant for the players.
"Poorly designed", here, seems to be treated as synonymous with "not popular with me and those who want the same things as me". Which is not the same as "D&D players" or "WotC customers".

The comments about legendary monsters are also interesting, because when I look at them I see them as a clear development of a 4e idea, the solo monster with mechanical abilities to try and handle the action economy and also cope with action denial. This is building on one of the more distinctive, and better designed, aspects of 4e, namely, attention to the action economy.

I also think it's interesting that the solution to ongoing problems with 4e solo design has been to go more metagame - with legendary resistance and legendary actions - than nearly any element of 4e monster design. It makes me somewhat curious as to why we haven't seen those who attack "dissociated mechanics" attacking legendary resistance and legendary actions. But I think the answer to that question belongs to the domain of marketing, rather than of game design.

You didn't see people rushing through their Day/Encounter/At Will cycle in every encounter they were allowed to? The dawn of the 15 minute day?
For me, the 15 minute adventuring day began in AD&D, when casters nova-ed their spells and wanted to rest. In six years of 4e play I have not seen any problems with the 15 minute day, because dailies are only a very modest component of PC effectiveness.

That is a departure from earlier versions of D&D, where dailies - in the form of spells - are a very significant component of PC effectiveness.

Another interesting feature of 4e that 5e seems to have picked up on and developed is the ritual system, decoupling effectiveness in a whole range of utility situations from the expenditure of daily resources.
 

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Celtavian

Dragon Lord
"There has been discussion about the overall "brand" strategy for D&D, which Perkins commented on. He mentioned that "...people at Hasbro that never cared about D&D before, care about it now; Hollywood is fighting over it"

I guess old Hollywood never took the bait when the agents said D&D was going to be the new "LOTR" or "Hobbit?"

My thoughts are that thanks to Marvel selling talking raccoons, everyone see the flood gates open. Or maybe JJ Abrams wants to add D&D to his geek resume. :)

But yeah, Hasbro should have done its about face years ago when they figured out that selling the video game rights was a bone-head move.

The Drizz't novels would make a great movie. I'm not a huge fan myself. I've ready the first series. It would make a movie I believe a lot of people could get into. I'm still surprised someone in Hollywood hasn't taken a change on it. Most of the other Forgotten Realms stories are too over the top. Even Elminster would make for a bad movie. Drizz't would be a great movie. Low magic, cool dark elf with panther that fights with two swords, evil Houses in vast Underground realm, escaping from under the thumb of the evil matriarchs that rule it and their Spider Goddess. It would be great.
 

Sadras

Legend
thank you... I think I'll step back from this thread for a while now...

Hey just wanted to echo Mistwell that there are others that agree with at least some of what you say and that your views certainly bring a fresh perspective to the issue of an OGL which I had not heard before (I'm probably wearing too many blinkers).

The other thing I was rather impressed about was that you mentioned that you had a group of 20 or so or 2e players in the middle/end of the 3.x era. Personally I think that's pretty awesome :)
 

National Acrobat

First Post
As a stance that completely fails to take into account the rise of OSR which was already evident, the return of an admittedly small number of people that had returned to a 1/2e style of play in reaction to a game that was bloating out of their comfort zone.

I was a stick in the mud. But I had no reason to change. I also didn't play the blame game, but would give my opinion when asked and some people didn't like that I didn't like something they did.

My entire group was similar. We switched back to 1e for awhile when 4e came out after we tried it and didn't like it. Once Pathfinder came out, we moved to that, liking the streamlining of 3.5.

As a whole though, we're perfectly fine with 1e, and when 4e was released, we realized that we were quite fine playing 1e, and still do intermittently with our PF games.
 

Lord Vangarel

First Post
Our group tried 4E but didn't like it for a number of reasons, some small others large, but all of which added up to us changing back to 3.5E. When Paizo came along with Pathfinder the switch was an obvious one and for a while we rocked a few campaigns but in the end I, as DM, more than the players grew tired of the bloat and we swapped to a 1E game. When 5E was announced I watched with interest but we refused to commit until we saw the writing on the page as we felt burned by past experiences.

I'm glad 5E looks like it will have a future, all I need now is for WotC to announce some standalone modules and all will be great.
 

Mercurius

Legend
I'm glad 5E looks like it will have a future, all I need now is for WotC to announce some standalone modules and all will be great.

Unlikely to happen, at least not to the extent that you might want. But the fact that there will be an OGL means that there should be tons of standalone modules produced by other publishers. I don't know what Goodman plans, but it would be nice to see another line like Dungeon Crawl Classics.

These claims about "difference" are contentious. For instance, I've played plenty of B/X, and more than plenty of AD&D, and I don't find 4e to be a "drastic departure" that is "completely different from any previous edition". Like those earlier editions it has fighters, clerics, thieves and magic-users (wizards). It has a default story arc that begins with goblins and bandits and ends with demons and devils and their overlords on other planes. It has to hit rolls and hit points.

It expands the imposition of effects, as a consequence of combat success, from spell casting to martial combat but that is not very confusing, and not unprecedented either: the Wilderness Survival Guide had rules for bleeding wounds, and one of the Appendices in Unearthed Arcana had rules for stunning enemies by hitting them over the head with a chair.

Yes, true - I agree with all of this. But...

I don't have any experience with 3.5, but my limited experience with 3E suggests that 4e is no more different from it than 3E is from 2nd ed AD&D.

Here is where we differ. While I played 4E and for me it was "real D&D," it did have a rather different quality to it than 3E, and in that sense was more of a departure from traditional/classic D&D (or AD&D) than 3E was from 2E, and I would say overall was, if not quite the "red-headed stepchild" of the D&D family, then certainly the black sheep. This is not meant in a pejorative manner! I, for one, love black sheep (and am a bit of one myself)! :lol:

I wouldn't want to be overly specific about what exactly made it feel so different, because that is largely what it was: a feeling. Certainly that feeling was derived from actual mechanics within the game, but I wouldn't want to reduce it to any one or set of mechanics. That said, I do think that the AEDU paradigm was key to this. 3E and 4E shared a similar complexity (with 3E being perhaps more complicated in terms of "heapishness", and 4E being a bit more streamlined and less "heapish" but equally complex), but the main difference was the AEDU powers structure.

The labelling of things that have always been part of D&D - like different sorts of abilities with different recharge periods - as at-will, encounter or daily powers doesn't seem to me any very big change, no bigger than (for instance) 3E turning non-weapon proficiencies into a mixture of skills and feats. It's a change in label, but not in play.

True, although I see it as a change in what we could call "player positioning relative to the character and setting." The terminology and, to some extent, mechanics of 4E changed the way the player was positioned relative to their character (and thus game world). In a way it incorporated a layer of abstraction that wasn't previously there, or was different in terms of positioning. As I see it, this allowed for greater tactical complexity and richness, but was problematic for many in terms of how it re-positioned the player into a more abstract game environment, rather than the more traditional theater of mind story environment - at least for many who found the additional tactical-abstract-metagame layer a bit distracting from immersion in theater of mind.

You and I have talked about this before and not entirely agreed, but at the least I will say that I don't feel one way is "better" than the other, and that it may come down to cognitive styles. Different people process concepts in different ways. But I think the thing to keep in mind is that many folks found 4E's approach off-putting or at least difficult to penetrate and adjust to. The million-dollar question that will forever remain unanswered is whether or not WotC might have found a better way to get people into 4E if the edition wars hadn't occurred. In that regard I think Essentials was a missed opportunity, that could have both "healed the rift" and provided a simpler, easier access to 4E. As I see it, it didn't do the former at all and only the latter in a rather half-hearted way.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person, even the only person in this thread, who sees the issue of difference this way. Which means that I don't see how difference is a very useful basis for explaining what happened with 4e and Paizo. You would need to identify some other factor which explains why some people think 4e is different from what came before, and why others don't.

And that explanation is unlikely to be that one group is more insightful than the other, or that one group has a better grasp than the other on the essence of D&D.

Agreed! But in that regard I think we have a bit of a black sails of Theseus problem where it is easy to assume a certain response or intent before one actually takes the time to try to understand what the other is saying. This is not to say that there aren't some people out there who are really playing a "My dad is better than your dad" game, but I don't think that's inherently the case when trying to speak of differences between editions, or the relative success of different editions. I mean, I'm fairly certain that these are the types of questions WotC asks, or asked while designing 5E: How successful was 4E overall? To what degree did it capture the "essence of D&D" for a wide number of fans? What could we change in order to offer a more inclusive D&D game? Etc.

"Poorly designed", here, seems to be treated as synonymous with "not popular with me and those who want the same things as me". Which is not the same as "D&D players" or "WotC customers".

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, and I for one do not think 4E was "poorly designed." Actually, it was an incredible design and a very fun game. But I don't think it has to be all or nothing - either we're talking just about our own personal tastes or we're talking about everyone.

But I don't think most people who didn't like 4E didn't like it because they thought it was "poorly designed," or if they did I would suggest that they--or many of them--were projecting their feelings onto the game system itself. I think for the people who actively disliked 4E it was more of an affective, gut feeling - partially a response to WotC's early "anti-3E" campaign, partially not gelling with the mechanics, in particular AEDU, partially not liking the aesthetic of 4E and its incorporation of non-traditional elements into the core (e.g. dragonborn, eladrin, etc).
 
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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Drizz't would be a great movie. Low magic, cool dark elf with panther that fights with two swords, evil Houses in vast Underground realm, escaping from under the thumb of the evil matriarchs that rule it and their Spider Goddess. It would be great.

I suspect that any such movie would run aground due to issues regarding the skin color of drow. It would be a combination of "Wait, are they saying that a society that's entirely populated with black-skinned people is evil and violent?" and "Are those actors wearing blackface?!"
 

Dausuul

Legend
I suspect that any such movie would run aground due to issues regarding the skin color of drow. It would be a combination of "Wait, are they saying that a society that's entirely populated with black-skinned people is evil and violent?" and "Are those actors wearing blackface?!"
Agreed. Taking off the rose-colored glasses of D&D tradition, drow as presented in D&D are pretty damn offensive. One more reason I think WotC and Hasbro ought to go with Dragonlance over Drizzt.

If they do make a Drizzt movie, my guess is that Drizzt will be the only drow in it, and his origins will be glossed over.
 

Nebulous

Legend
Our group tried 4E but didn't like it for a number of reasons, some small others large, but all of which added up to us changing back to 3.5E. When Paizo came along with Pathfinder the switch was an obvious one and for a while we rocked a few campaigns but in the end I, as DM, more than the players grew tired of the bloat and we swapped to a 1E game. When 5E was announced I watched with interest but we refused to commit until we saw the writing on the page as we felt burned by past experiences.

I'm glad 5E looks like it will have a future, all I need now is for WotC to announce some standalone modules and all will be great.

For what it's worth, i know that Frog God Games is coming out with a huge book of adventures for 5e....
 


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