D&D 5E Gamehole Con Live Tweeting Perkins Panel

[pemerton]

This is an interesting perspective and one I think has a lot of truth to it. Where it breaks down is that there doesn't seem to be an equivalent transition from "4.5" to 5E. Essentials to some degree, but not really. Maybe this is where 5E represents a kind of "return to roots," a full cycle complete and, seemingly, the best of the last cycle incorporated in a new octave. a

5e certainly does not fit.

Someone - unfortunately I can't remember who - had an interesting post sometime in the past couple of months arguing that 5e's class design is very closely related to Essentials. It seemed plausible.

 

[Imaro]

I don't know - I think that the Uruk-Hai are pretty identifiable as Maori.

I didn't know this until you brought it to my attention here... I will say that I googled it and it was also stated that the Maori played Riders of Rohan, Gondorian soldiers, Harakhim and the Uruk-Hai... so I'm not sure if that's the best example... But at least I learned something new.

 

[Imaro]

Were they turned black by the gods? I forget. If so, I stand corrected.

Yeah originally they were "cursed" with black skin because they betrayed Corellon the elf god.

 

[Imaro]

I doubt that it would be viewed this way. The books weren't viewed in this fashion. I'm pretty sure the white hair and red eyes will make them appear quite different.

Strange viewpoint. Not everything need to be tied to race. It reaches a point of absurdity when everything with dark skin is somehow tied to modern race viewpoints.

The only way I see it not being viewed this way is if WotC goes the 5e route and allows elves of all skin tones and then introduces the drow... and even then a race that has been marked by dark(er) skin because they are evil still isn't going to sit right without alot of people.

It's not a strange viewpoint and one (sub)race in D&D is certainly not "Everything (with dark skin) needing to be tied to race", so please let's cut the hyperbole... but the skin color issue kind of does tie it to race in a default way.

 

[Mercurius]

5e certainly does not fit. Frankly, I've been pleasantly surprised at how it's appealed to a wide swath of fans. I hoped it would do so, but tried not to get my expectations up. But then, I think 5e's design parameters were a bit different from previous editions. Previously, a new edition would look at its predecessor, and try to keep the good stuff and fix the bad stuff. 5e seems to have taken the whole of D&D design history (including the D&D/AD&D distinction) into account when it came to "keep good stuff, fix bad stuff".

How about this: "5E: The Legacy Edition."

Someone - unfortunately I can't remember who - had an interesting post sometime in the past couple of months arguing that 5e's class design is very closely related to Essentials. It seemed plausible.

Yeah, although I think it would be more accurate to say that Essentials was trying to harken back to a more classic design, and 5E even more so. So it wasn't as much that 5E was based on Essentials class design, but that both were pointing back more towards classic D&D, at least relative to 4E (and, to a lesser extent, 3E).

Yeah originally they were "cursed" with black skin because they betrayed Corellon the elf god.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. That truly is...questionable. That would definitely have to be retconned out of the D&D mythos for a movie!

 

[pemerton]

I didn't know this until you brought it to my attention here... I will say that I googled it and it was also stated that the Maori played Riders of Rohan, Gondorian soldiers, Harakhim and the Uruk-Hai... so I'm not sure if that's the best example... But at least I learned something new.

I don't remember any visibly brown Rohirrim or Gondorian soldiers - so I'm guessing Maori playing those roles were mostly wearing helmets.

There are definitely Maori Southrons. Maybe Easterlings too, but they tend to be under helmets so less obvious.

In terms of recognition, there are probably fewer Maori in North America than in Australia (we have free movement of people between Australia and New Zealand). So the on-screen Maori presence is probably more obvious to audiences in this part of the world.

In terms of "dark skin implies evil", in the context of the LotR in general and the movies in particular, that's an idea of come across both in writing and in conversation (both with white people and Australian people of colour). But if you feel that the drow would take that to another level, fair enough.

 

[pemerton]

I think it would be more accurate to say that Essentials was trying to harken back to a more classic design, and 5E even more so. So it wasn't as much that 5E was based on Essentials class design, but that both were pointing back more towards classic D&D, at least relative to 4E (and, to a lesser extent, 3E).

This isn't what the post (that I can't link to) was saying.

Essentials doesn't just "harken back". It aims for class balance through a systematic attempt to balance asymmetric resource suites in a way that classic D&D didn't really do. For instance, Essentials is based on a certain posited number of encounters per long rest, and then tries to balance permanent bonuses to hit and damage against a wizard or cleric's spike effects via daily spells. 5e picks up on and develops this aspect of Essentials.

 

[dd.stevenson]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. That truly is...questionable. That would definitely have to be retconned out of the D&D mythos for a movie!

I might be wrong--but I suspect they could just replace "black" with "blue" and that'd be good enough for Hollywood. Especially if they threw in that the real curse was that their skin had been changed so they could not stand the sun, and the blue tint was merely an incidental magical side effect.

 

[MerricB]

Yeah originally they were "cursed" with black skin because they betrayed Corellon the elf god.

Be careful with "originally". The original presentation of the drow (in D3 and then Fiend Folio) makes no mention of why they have black skin.

Gygax had this to say on the origins of the drow:

"The three “D Series” modules which continue the former series owe little, if anything, to fiction. Drow are mentioned in Keightley’s THE FAIRY MYTHOLOGY, as I recall (it might have been THE SECRET COMMONWEALTH—neither book is before me, and it is not all that important anyway), and as Dark Elves of evil nature, they served as an ideal basis for the creation of a unique new mythos designed especially for AD&D. The roles the various drow are designed to play in the series are commensurate with those of prospective player characters. In fact, the race could be used for player characters, providing that appropriate penalties were levied when a drow or half-drow was in the daylight world." (Dragon #31).

As far as I can see, neither Keightley or the Secret Commonwealth mention drow by that name at all.

Dökkálfar - the dark elves of Norse mythology - are "blacker than pitch". They do get a mention in the Fairy Mythology, and this seems the most likely source for the drow.

Here's the text:

In the prose Edda, Ganglar inquires what other cities beside that in which the Nornir dwelt were by the Urdar fount, under the Ash Yggdrasil.[99] Hár replies,

"There are many fair cities there. There is the city which is called Alf-heim, where dwelleth the people that is called Liosálfar (Light Alfs). But the Döckálfar (Dark Alfs) dwell below under ground, and are unlike them in appearance, and still more unlike in actions. The Liosálfar are whiter than the sun in appearance, but the Döckálfar are blacker than pitch."

The Alfar still live in the memory and traditions of the peasantry of Scandinavia. They also, to a certain extent, retain their distinction into White and Black. The former, or the Good Elves, dwell in the air, dance on the grass, or sit in the leaves of trees; the latter, or Evil Elves, are regarded as an underground people, who frequently inflict sickness or injury on mankind; for which there is a particular kind of doctors called Kloka män,[128] to be met with in all parts of the country.

So, why are the drow of black skin? It seems most likely that it is due to their derivation from the Norse mythology, through Keightley and then to Gygax.

Cheers!

 

[Celtavian]

The only way I see it not being viewed this way is if WotC goes the 5e route and allows elves of all skin tones and then introduces the drow... and even then a race that has been marked by dark(er) skin because they are evil still isn't going to sit right without alot of people.

It's not a strange viewpoint and one (sub)race in D&D is certainly not "Everything (with dark skin) needing to be tied to race", so please let's cut the hyperbole... but the skin color issue kind of does tie it to race in a default way.

To my knowledge elves already exhibit all skin colors depending on where they live. I never stopped my friend from playing a dark skinned elf in any of my campaigns. Though he made drow a ton, Eilistraean's mostly. He loved drow elves. I'm not sure if it had to do with him being of African descent or liking the entire appearance of them. Maybe a bit of both. He did play other types of elves with darker skin and I never discouraged it. I didn't see the point. Why wouldn't there be elves the color of elves genetically evolved from the southern hemisphere in the world?

But the Drow are something else. I would hate to see their original design altered due to a modern cultural viewpoint that chooses to impose a racial agenda upon their creation.