D&D 5E Ghouls still not quite right in MM

[occam]

But, after reading this thread, i'm changing something. I'm running the Lost Mine adventure and there's gonna be some ash-ghouls in Thundertree now....

Ooh, that sounds like fun!

 

[Nebulous]

Ooh, that sounds like fun!

Fun and deadly!

 

[Tormyr]

I've always looked at paralysis from a ghoul to be more fear based...you're frozen with fright and unable to defend yourself. Of course then it should be a wisdom save which I've house ruled it to be in earlier editions. I probably won't do this in 5e...characters most likely to get hit by a ghoul usually have better CON than WIS so switching it might make them tougher. Leaving things RAW as much as I can for now.

I always viewed it as there is something, magical or otherwise, in their claws that triggers an effect similar to rigor mortis with the speed of an anaphylactic shock.

More in general to the thread: A session I ran back in May had the party investigate underwater rooms. Only two of the 6 party members went into the water.There was a ghoul that surprised them in one of the rooms. The ghoul missed, and the monk took it out in one turn. That was under the playtest. So the ghoul was underpowered, and nobody had disadvantage on hits. In 5e, that could have gone very differently. Paralyzed underwater? The clock is ticking.

 

[Nebulous]

I always viewed it as there is something, magical or otherwise, in their claws that triggers an effect similar to rigor mortis with the speed of an anaphylactic shock.

More in general to the thread: A session I ran back in May had the party investigate underwater rooms. Only two of the 6 party members went into the water.There was a ghoul that surprised them in one of the rooms. The ghoul missed, and the monk took it out in one turn. That was under the playtest. So the ghoul was underpowered, and nobody had disadvantage on hits. In 5e, that could have gone very differently. Paralyzed underwater? The clock is ticking.

Ghoul swarm + surprise + underwater + no light = **** your britches mates!

 

[aramis erak]

Fantasy paralysis hasn't got that much to do with real life paralysis.

The fantasy trope paralysis locks the whole body down, not relaxes.

(Realistically you'd probably keel over anyhow, as we are seldom in perfect balance if we suddenly stop moving. But that's not as evocative.)

Certain real world toxins also do that. Some trigger muscle-spasm, rigidizing the limb. Some cause massive edema, swelling it to stiffness.

 

[Mon]

We've always portrayed ghouls as opportunistic cannibal scavengers, who strike to paralyse and then drag off the victim to feast while they're still alive (if possible). That's one reason they're so horrific. We've had PCs following and desperately searching for the bolt-holes of retreating ghouls to rescue comrades and NPCs from this fate while feasting is in progress - it's iconically ghoulish for us.

Sadly, the 5e ghoul paralysis mechanic doesn't facilitate this kind of encounter/narrative. However our solution is to allow a save each round as written for three rounds. After the third failed save, the paralysis "sticks" and thereafter lasts for 10 minutes. This makes it possible for longer-term paralysis ala AD&D (which was 3-8 minutes IIRC) while still essentially having recovery saves during combat.

 

[aramis erak]

We've always portrayed ghouls as opportunistic cannibal scavengers, who strike to paralyse and then drag off the victim to feast while they're still alive (if possible). That's one reason they're so horrific. We've had PCs following and desperately searching for the bolt-holes of retreating ghouls to rescue comrades and NPCs from this fate while feasting is in progress - it's iconically ghoulish for us.

Sadly, the 5e ghoul paralysis mechanic doesn't facilitate this kind of encounter/narrative. However our solution is to allow a save each round as written for three rounds. After the third failed save, the paralysis "sticks" and thereafter lasts for 10 minutes. This makes it possible for longer-term paralysis ala AD&D (which was 3-8 minutes IIRC) while still essentially having recovery saves during combat.

The AD&D combat round was also a minute long. So, the Ghoul paralysis was only 3-8 rounds.

 

[Mon]

The AD&D combat round was also a minute long. So, the Ghoul paralysis was only 3-8 rounds.

Yes...that's kinda the point.

Hence the minutes-long paralysis after 3 failed saves middle-ground I mentioned. It works when the paralysis is used in the narrative of the fiction as we've always portrayed ghouls (potentially giving them time to drag victims - PC or NPC - off to a bolt hole or whatever), as well as for countering the "I guess I'll play angry birds for a while 'cause I'm paralysed" aspect of the combat game. Win-Win.

 

[Nebulous]

Yes...that's kinda the point.

Hence the minutes-long paralysis after 3 failed saves middle-ground I mentioned. It works when the paralysis is used in the narrative of the fiction as we've always portrayed ghouls (potentially giving them time to drag victims - PC or NPC - off to a bolt hole or whatever), as well as for countering the "I guess I'll play angry birds for a while 'cause I'm paralysed" aspect of the combat game. Win-Win.

I like that. 3 failed saves and then something worse happens. In fact, that might be a good rule of thumb for all sorts of stuff in 5e. It certainly follows the death save model.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

To anyone who dislikes the "save each round" rule, I very strongly recommend you try playing the game with the rules as written before you house rule anything.

Combats in 5e are quick and brutal. A single round is an eternity when you are paralyzed, and every attack against you has advantage, and every hit against you is an auto-crit.



There is also the very real likelihood that, when fighting multiple ghouls, you will be re-paralyzed before your next turn begins.

Making paralysis longer-lasting is a sure recipe for a TPK.

I can´t stress enough, what is said here: Saving throws in this edition are a mix of 3rd and 4th edition saving throws:
They not only decide if you are hit by an effect (as in 3rd edition), but are the main factor how long you are effected (like in 4e)
In 3rd edition you usually had a duration set by our caster level. This kind of tracking has gone the way of the dodo for mostly (usually there is an upper limit of 10 rounds or so).

Also, damage spells don´t scale with caster level, so the wizards chance of inflicitng full damage will increase instead of decreasing (as in 2nd edition and to a lesser degree in 3e theoretically) but the maximum damage stays the same if he does not use a higher slot.

So please, don´t mess around with the saving throws until you got used to their new meaning in 5e.

There are a few cases, where I believe, saving throws were not used well by the designers: long time single save or suck spells (there are very few of them). I consider adding the proficiency bonus one extra time to such spells, or add a bonus to saves depending on the current number of HP of the target. But I want to see if they are really a problem. I would also add at least a single saving throw to wall of force and forcecage.