D&D 5E Character play vs Player play

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Second, it's not the XP for avoiding an encounter that was the fundamental change. The big thing that changed was that in 1E the main way of gaining XP was GP - you gained approximately three times as much XP from loot as you did from combat.
Quite right, but outside my experience due to the fact that in well over 30 years of doing this I have yet to meet a DM who kept that rule in the game, myself included. (but see below)
2E's version is that you gain XP from combat and from behaving as a stereotypical member of your class (something AFAIK most groups dropped as it's silly). 3E did away with this. 4E both put a lot of weight on Quest Awards and gave XP for skill challenges.
Ah, but does 4e give experience for *avoiding* skill challenges?

The Quest Awards stuff must have come in later 4e, I have the first go-round of 4e books and while such things are mentioned, I don't recall them being front-and-centre highlighted. And in the 4e adventures I have, it seems the later they were written the more reference there is to Quest Awards and suchlike.

But, perhaps amusingly, when our crew did away with xp-for-gp in 1e we replaced it to a small extent with what we call "Dungeon Bonus", a lump-sum batch of xp given out on the completion of a mission and-or end of an adventure. Quite similar to Quest Awards, in fact, with the notable exception that they only ever occur at the end of an adventure, never partway through. The dungeon bonus is worth wa-ay less than the xp-for-gp would have been, however, and that's quite intentional to slow the advancement down.

Lan-"there are few if any things better at diplomacy than a +4 longsword"-efan
 

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Hussar

Legend
Quite right, but outside my experience due to the fact that in well over 30 years of doing this I have yet to meet a DM who kept that rule in the game, myself included. (but see below) Ah, but does 4e give experience for *avoiding* skill challenges?

The Quest Awards stuff must have come in later 4e, I have the first go-round of 4e books and while such things are mentioned, I don't recall them being front-and-centre highlighted. And in the 4e adventures I have, it seems the later they were written the more reference there is to Quest Awards and suchlike.

But, perhaps amusingly, when our crew did away with xp-for-gp in 1e we replaced it to a small extent with what we call "Dungeon Bonus", a lump-sum batch of xp given out on the completion of a mission and-or end of an adventure. Quite similar to Quest Awards, in fact, with the notable exception that they only ever occur at the end of an adventure, never partway through. The dungeon bonus is worth wa-ay less than the xp-for-gp would have been, however, and that's quite intentional to slow the advancement down.

Lan-"there are few if any things better at diplomacy than a +4 longsword"-efan

heh. Similarities and differences. We certainly used the "Dungeon Bonus" or mission bonus xp idea too. But, unlike you, I never met a DM who didn't use gp for xp. Everyone I played with and everyone I met always did, including our university gaming club which had numerous 1e groups even in the late 80's.

Why did you remove it?
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
If it's not player authorship, then how did those boxes get placed in that alley? The DM didn't put them there, because he doesn't know if there are boxes in the alley when the player asks. So, who put the boxes there? The player asks, the DM says yes. Who put the boxes in that alley?

It's been a while since I've been back, but I wanted to respond to this in particular. In this case, I say that the DM clearly put the boxes in the alley. They were suggested by the player, but the DM decided to put them there.

It's not a matter of veto power by the DM. To me player authorship has to allow the players to actually have the ability to write things into the game. Players don't. They can suggest that the DM write things in and it is purely up to the DM whether he does or not.

To me, the difference is one of expectations. If you say that the players have player authorship but the DM has veto power, then what you are essentially saying is that the DM is taking action to strike down the ideas of the players who legitimately have the power to author things. The implication here is that the DM will say yes to everything the players say and the DM, although he has veto power, won't say no very often.

To me, that encourages the players to continually suggest things and fundamentally changes their role within the game. I like my players to assume that 90% of the time their suggestions are going to be met with no since I already have a different idea in mind or the idea doesn't fit with my vision of how the world or game should work.

To me saying that a player's suggestion that gets accepted by the DM is player authorship is like saying I'm part author of the Game of Thrones books since it is possible for me to post a suggestion on twitter to George RR Martin on what to put in his next book. I can suggest it all I want but the expectation is that there is no way he's going to use it.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
... and the biggest "offender" for early player authorship outside of character is imho on p10 of every edition : "pick your class". This is totally meta, and has a great bearing on the scenes yet to be framed by the DM, sooner or later in the game.
So... I guess we should stop this debate about traditionalism (which reeks of OneTrueWayism and retconning) and get back to the OP :)

I see that each rule that you let the player use is, once again, the DM lending SOME of his authorial control to the players in certain ways. The players DO have authorial control over certain parts of the story. That's why they are players and not readers or watchers.

Their characters can take actions, activate abilities, pick up and move objects and so on. They have an effect on the world. That effect amounts to some authorial control. However, all of those abilities have, essentially, been given to them by the DM.

When you make a character it is an agreement between the DM and the players that during this part of the game the DM is willing to give you control over way more than you'll have control over later in the game. You get to choose which abilities you'll have to affect the game later. If you choose spells, you are saying "I'd like to have this limited control over the game later". The DM is, by allowing those spells, saying "Sure, you can have certain, limited, control as defined by these rules. They have limited uses and are governed by specific rules as to when and how they can be used."

Being the OP, this is kind of at the essence of what I was talking about in the OP. Here we have a player who wants his abilities to do things the game system wasn't really designed to let him do(solve puzzles by simply rolling high enough). I, as the DM, am saying "Sorry, I never agreed to give you that power." The player is taking it very badly and complaining about it. To me, any power I didn't explicitly give a player is one they don't have. It's simple. If you don't have the power to solve a problem by making a die roll...then what other method are you going to use to solve the problem? Please explain how you use the resources that I HAVE given you to solve the problem at hand.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
Have a wizard walk in and cast SLEEEEEEP, then search everyone. but all this really comes down to is how good the DM is. My friends and I all just started playing the game but luckly we have a good DM. If my bard buddy comes in and is like "Friends" then gets what he needs from them, he'll give out some information or just make somthing up on that spot that shortens the quest a little. So we hardly ever have a dull moment. Even though we meta game the whole dame session XD All and all, find a good dm who can go with the flow. Dont hang out with annoying dnd players who go by the book 100%. Not sure if this helped or went off topic a bit but i tried. ima gonna cast blink and leave right quick
As a side note, if this put the guy to sleep...I'd most likely have it work. The guy would never smash the artifact and the adventure would end.

It might suck for the players. The entire adventure would consist of "Welcome to the adventure, introduce yourselves...ok...you cast sleep...you win. The end."

Since the adventure is designed to run an hour, if run at a convention you might have time to play a board game or something while waiting for the next slot.
 

pemerton

Legend
proto-tailoring is becoming part of the mix as early as five to seven years into the development of the game.
Personally, I think that "within 5 to 7 years" of a hobby that is 40 years old counts as early in the development of the game. Particularly when we're talking about official rule books that sold (and were expected to sell) hundreds of thousands of copies. They are a marker of the responses that had evolved in response to actual play experiences.

As to dungeon levels, teleportation chambers and gently sloping passages give no guarantee that PCs will have say so in where they wind up.
But these are meant to be challenges for the players. Skilled players will, via detection (eg by dwarves or gnomes), via mapping, etc, realise that they are lost and (as per the advice in Gygax's PHB, p 109) will make finding their way out of the dungeon their number one priority. And the evasion rules from the early game, in combination with the convention that placed monsters don't make forays out of their rooms, will make that feasible - they can run from wanderers, dropping treasure or food to distract pursuers, and make it out.

Doing this sort of thing in 3E is much harder, because (i) their are no evasion rules, and (ii) the likelihood that higher level monsters will wipe out lower level PCs is much greater, due to the severe scaling of that edition (the most extreme of any edition).

You could say that the extreme scaling of 3E makes deliberate tailoring a type of imperative that it was not, to the same extent, in AD&D and Basic, just because those editions were closer to a type of "bounded accuracy". In 3E, without tailoring, but also without evasion rules, the outcome of "status quo" encounters ends up becoming very much a matter of GM fiat. (That's why I described them, upthread, as looking railroady to me. Quite unlike AD&D, were there are /I] evasion rules and there is not the extreme scaling, so flyers like dragons, chimarae and manticores aside, the PCs can hope to perhaps survive a round and then make their escape.)

I think where some of your arguments fail is that you don't seem to personally find sandbox play fun, though many do. A lot of what you insist must be the case based on your interpretation falls back on the idea that what you think is fun must be what everyone thinks is fun. That's simply untrue.
I don't think that what I find fun is what everyone thinks is fun. But I do think that Gygax meant what he wrote - and once he talks about fudging secret door rolls to expdite progress into interesting parts of the dungeon, pure sand-boxing has been left behind.

Nowhere do either Gygax's DMG or Moldvay talk about sand-boxing as a mode of play. The closest Gygax gets is in his discussion of time (pp 37-38), although as is nototorious that discussion makes assumptions about the frequency of real-world play that aren't actually stated, and nothing in that discussion excludes the GM having placed the various game elemens that the players are having their PCs explore in response to expressed player interests- for instance, nothing is suggested about whether the oracle that player character A is off visiting was first introduced at the instigation of the GM, or rather was placed by the GM in response to a query from the player.

And there is even the remark that "players involved in the outdoors someplace will either have to come home to 'sit around' or continue adventuring in wildernesses and perhaps in some distant dungeon as well (if you are kind)". What is the kindness that Gygax has in mind? Presumably, the GM placing a dungeon for these players, whose PCs are ahead in the timeline, to explore. Obviously that is not Forge-ist scene-framing, but it's not pure sandboxing either.

My reason for makig these points is the one that I stated upthread - that the approaches to authorship, backstory management, scene-framing, etc that are identified with a range of different RPGs (including Forge ones) didn't come from nowhere c 1995. They have their origins in real problems of RPGing, such as (in this case) what to do with a gap between the most natural ingame likelihood (ie that there's nothing much for these PCs to do) and the player expectations of the game (ie that they'll turn up to play and have something interesting for their PCs to do).

This is ultimately what the boxes/beard discussion is about, too - if the players are keen on climbing boxes, what is the point of the GM not introducing boxes into the alley and insisting that the players do it his/her preconceived way? If the players want to infiltrate the guild in bearded disguise, what is the pont of the GM insisting that the wizard is clean-shaven, and hence making the infiltration take some other form?

The question "what is the point" is not rhetorical. There may be a point - upthread I likened unravelling the GM's intended solution to solving a sudoku - but if the players are looking for something other than sudoku-solving from their RPGing the GM might want to take notice. After all, it's not as if the OP is a statement of total congruence between GM and player expectations and experiences!
 

pemerton

Legend
The Quest Awards stuff must have come in later 4e, I have the first go-round of 4e books and while such things are mentioned, I don't recall them being front-and-centre highlighted.
The main discussion of Quests (including player authorship of them and XP awards in relation to them) is found in the 4e PHB p 258 (the first heading in the chapter on Adventuring), and the 4e DMG pp 102-3 (in the chapter on Adventures) and pp 122-23 (in the chapter on XP awards) . There is also some discussion in Essentials, but I don't think it is as thorough.

does 4e give experience for *avoiding* skill challenges?
According to "stealth" errata in Essentials, XP are awarded for a skill challenge whether the characters succeed or fail.

As I've often commentd, the function of XP in 4e is very different from in classical D&D. (I won't purport to understand the point of XP in 2nd ed AD&D and 3E.) In classic D&D, XP are a reward. Better players expect to earn more of them; weaker players earn fewer. Poor players might spend a whole evening making a hash of a dungeon raid, having few combat victories and collecting little treasure and hence getting little reward for their efforts.

In 4e, XP are bascially a pacing device. Provided the players are actually engaging the game - resolving encounters (be they combat or non-combat) in a way that engages the agreed story focuses of play (ie earns quest awards), they earn XP. In DMG 2 this is even extended to the idea that non-encounter-focused but serious exploratory play earns XP. The basic rate is around one level-appropriate monsters worth per quarter-hour of play. Hence, provided that players sincerely play the game, their PCs will advance in level, thereby progressing through the stages of the game (heroic, paragon, epic and the endgame).

Awarding XP for failing at a skill challenge is part of this. But if the players "avoid" a skill challenge in the sense of (say) teleport around it, and hence engage in 5 minutes of play rather than 1 hour of play, then on the 4e logic XP shouldn't be awarded. Obviously the players didn't want to play that part of the game, they wanted to do something else - so let's have them do that, and then award XP when that has been done.

This is also why 4e, more than any other edition, lends itself completely to "level when the story makes it appropriate" approach - and the DMG expressly canvasses that option (p 121), the first to do so as far as I'm aware.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
see this is a great example of why it is hard to agree with each other... I have very rarely played a game like that, and I think only run 1 or 2. Most of my lowlevel games start in a city/town/hamlet with the PCs having lived there most of there lives.

would drive me nuts if it were the norm.
The thing is, you have no idea what the DM has planned. For all you know the city is going to explode during day 1. For all you know, a gate will open up and transport you to a different world. That's the nature of D&D. No idea what will happen.

I'm really not sure why it would drive you nuts. It's just part of the game. My character in one of our current games came from the city we started in. I had a couple of contacts and the DM gave me a little bit more power in town for the first session or two. Then we were sent into the wilderness looking for some relics and didn't come back to the city for nearly 3 months of real time(and about 2 months of in-game time).

None of my knowledge or contacts helped me navigate through the traps or enemies in the ancient temple we went to. None of them really factored into the game at all so far. When we got back to town, we immediately signed up to track down the Lost Crown of the country and went on a quest to track down an item that has been missing for hundreds of years. Since then, my contacts and knowledge of the city I was born in hasn't really come in handy once.

yes he can... but sometimes he can totally rock because the 3 city states the game takes place and around are all part of his thieves guild and he knows all the major players...
That might help...if the game was about the thieves guild and its activities. Though that is a particular kind of game with a lot of political intrigue. It would be fun to play now and then but certainly not something that can be expected. Most of the time those adventures aren't the best fit for a random collection of PCs made by the average group of players. You will often have the Paladin who wants to take apart the Thieves Guild and protect the citizens from evil in the same party as that Rogue. Which means the adventure can't really revolve around the Thieves Guild and their politics without alienating one of the players.

Almost all classes and archetypes can agree on stopping evil creatures and taking their stuff.

I would say that is about 1/3 of an adventurer in my eyes...
The world adventurer implies seeking adventure. Adventure is normally about discovering the unknown. I'm not saying that starting a gang war on the streets of the city or creating social change might not be fun. But it doesn't really qualify as "adventuring".

I do the exact opposite... I assume I am playing a character who knows a lot about what's going on and what things mean.
Why would you assume that? If the point of an adventure is that a cult that has been operating in secret for the last 1000 years wants to revive a god that is completely forgotten in the world...why would your character know absolutely anything about what is going on? I assume I know nothing. If the DM happens to say "Good news, this adventure takes place in the city you grew up in. Here's what you know that no one else does." then I'm happy that I get more information than other people. But I'm certainly not coming at it from a position of expecting I know things the others don't.

I think you are down playing the spectrum a bit here..
Not sure I understand what you mean. There IS a spectrum. But what you've described so far is extremely far on one side of the spectrum. Far more on the side of improv theatre than traditional RPGs.

but it does a large % of the time...
Yes, reality is rather predictable most of the time. It often conforms to our expectations. Mostly because the real world is rather bland and predictable. When you go into a cave in real life...you expect it to be empty with nothing noteworthy inside. A D&D game(IMHO) is interesting precisely BECAUSE what you would expect to happen DOESN'T happen. In D&D, you walk into that cave and it might be the home of cultists or a being from another dimension, or the entire cave could be an illusion covering a hidden city. You don't know WHAT to expect.

I find D&D works best precisely when it DOESN'T conform to your expectations. Secrets, plot twists, the strange, the unexpected are all the order of the day. That's why I play D&D and not sit around discussing my day at work. My day at work is boring and predictable. Even before I open my mouth to start speaking any of my friends could tell you that I'm about to say that I answered some phone calls helped some people with technical problems then I went home.

When I suggest something, I WANT my DM to say "I know you were expecting that. But here's what happens instead."
 

Hussar

Legend
Maj O said:
The thing is, you have no idea what the DM has planned. For all you know the city is going to explode during day 1. For all you know, a gate will open up and transport you to a different world. That's the nature of D&D. No idea what will happen.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...cter-play-vs-Player-play/page70#ixzz3JndqUOGv

That might be true for you but it certainly isn't for me. As a DM, I'm pretty clear at the outset what the campaign will consist of. If the players came to the table, expecting an urban campaign where they will be dealing with urban threats and concepts and I blow up the city on the first day and send them into a post-apocalyptic game, I'd call that a bait and switch. Likely I'd bow out of that campaign to be honest. It's not something I want to play. I want to play in a campaign where everyone is bought into the campaign before the campaign starts.

Again, maybe it's just my experience where most of the groups I've played in feature multiple DM's. If you don't have that initial buy in, odds are the campaign will fizzle very quickly and someone else will step up to take over.

As a DM, I won't do that and as a player, I'm not interested in a game like that. I'm very willing to sit down for hundreds of hours playing a given campaign. But, if you're going to force me in blind I'm certainly not going to give it a moments thought dropping the campaign. Why would I? I have zero buy in for a campaign like this.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
Personally, I think that "within 5 to 7 years" of a hobby that is 40 years old counts as early in the development of the game. Particularly when we're talking about official rule books that sold (and were expected to sell) hundreds of thousands of copies. They are a marker of the responses that had evolved in response to actual play experiences.


Early, indeed, and only a couple citations are being put forth as examples of (proto-)tailoring in what you're isolating (and seemingly trying to dismiss) as that early period. It also seems that you are overstating the importance of exceptions to rules. You need to understand that "fudging" is an exception to the rules which are by definition the standard.


But these are meant to be challenges for the players. Skilled players will, via detection (eg by dwarves or gnomes), via mapping, etc, realise that they are lost and (as per the advice in Gygax's PHB, p 109) will make finding their way out of the dungeon their number one priority.


This shifts toward the OP discussion, just to be clear and avoid conflating the two discussions, but even on page five of the (O)D&D's third booklet in the sample underworld the third entry states, "This area simply illustrates the use of slanting passages to help prevent players from accurately mapping a level." There's no guarantee that players and their PCs will know they are out of their depth.

But, here's a bit of proto-tailoring on the same page in a later example, "The combinations here are really vicious, and unless you're out to get your players it is not suggested for actual use. Passage south "D" is a slanting corridor which will take them at least one level deeper, and if the slope is gentle even dwarves won't recognize it. Room "E" is a transporter, two ways, to just about anywhere the referee likes, including the center of the earth or the moon. The passage south containing "F"is a one-way transporter, and the poor dupes will never realize it unless a very large party (over 50' in length) is entering it. (This is sure-fire fits for map makers among participants.)"

Note the potential for adversarial GM vs players (poor dupes? :p ) gameplay as being a distinct possibility in the designer's reckoning? That's rather metagamey and speaks to the OP discussion here. There's the transporter, btw, that I think someone else mentioned as not part of (O)D&D.

But, I think the point here is that the players can often have no idea they are even out of their depth, and far deeper in a dungeon than they know. They might come realize it when they lose a few of the party to creatures they had never previously encountered and then make the priority to get the heck out as soon as possible, only then discovering that at some point they took a one-way trip. Or they might never figure out how they came to be where they are, figure out they are beyond their ken and struggle to find a whole new egress.

Because of your own predilections, you take the idea of challenging the players as an ideal, as discreet and defined challenges for which there are specific solutions or, at least, thought to be solvable. But this is at the very heart of the difference between sandbox play and what came later. Challenging players can simply mean creating the circumstances whereby players, through their PCs, can find themselves in PC-life-threatening situations, and letting them figure their way out while the GM might have no idea if it is even possible.

To shift back over to the player authorship discussion, how effective is a passage slanting downward into unknown depths if a player can simply put crates at the end and climb back up and out through the trapdoor that appeared at the player's authorial direction? Can the player justify that since he just killed ten healthy human guards they must have had crates of supplies and also a trapdoor through which to bring them into their guardroom? Does this early period of D&D allow for such authorship? At what point in the development of D&D (leaving aside other RPGs and storytelling games for the time being) does such a scenario become the norm for D&D rather than unusual for gameplay?


And the evasion rules from the early game, in combination with the convention that placed monsters don't make forays out of their rooms, will make that feasible -


You need to understand that "wandering" monsters are one conceit that creatures do indeed make forays out of their rooms. Furthermore, "As a general rule there will be far more uninhabited space on a level than there will be space occupied by monsters, human or otherwise" indicates that the distance between lairs has some sway over something that has treasure to guard will, if it hears something dangerous wandering around or fighting in the distance, will come to investigate. Also, "At the end of every turn the referee will roll a six-sided die to see if a "wandering monster" has been encountered. A roll of 6 indicates a wandering monster has appeared."

That's an average of once every hour spent underground that something making a foray will be encounter. So, think of it this way. If I am a monster in a dungeon guarding some precious treasure, why would I go investigate every hourly sound and risk being killed by something more dangerous than myself? When I need to feed, am I not better off stalking something on my own terms than rushing toward the sound of a battle, battles generally being between two things with the means and will to fight? If I lie in wait and don't make noise then, as per the above standard conceit, something is going to wander by each hour and I can increase my chance to surprise it by not making noise myself. Granted, this precise line of reasoning isn't spelled out but it certainly follows from what is written.


(. . .) they can run from wanderers, dropping treasure or food to distract pursuers, and make it out.


That's certainly one player character strategy to avoid getting eaten.


Doing this sort of thing in 3E is much harder (. . .)


So, on the one hand we're dismissing the standard gameplay of the first five to seven years from which only one or two exceptions of that standard are cited as so early it is a blip in the timeline of RPGing but in the same post we're also reaching forward over 25 years later to cite rules where the early proto-tailoring is finally fleshed out. As I have pointed out, there are turning points and a long development period.


Nowhere do either Gygax's DMG or Moldvay talk about sand-boxing as a mode of play.


You only need to label something as such if it isn't the default by design, as pointed out in the examples from which we've collectively only cited a few exceptions from the first five to seven years. There's no need to call ice cream vanilla ice cream since, until there is a chocolate, vanilla ice cream is simply called ice cream. The labeling of sandbox play doesn't come until there are other forms of play beginning to become popular.


And there is even the remark that "players involved in the outdoors someplace will either have to come home to 'sit around' or continue adventuring in wildernesses and perhaps in some distant dungeon as well (if you are kind)". What is the kindness that Gygax has in mind? Presumably, the GM placing a dungeon for these players, whose PCs are ahead in the timeline, to explore. Obviously that is not Forge-ist scene-framing, but it's not pure sandboxing either.


The kindness to not simply play in the default style? You seemingly recognize that by your final phrasing and also understand that this argument you are making is pointing out an exception to the standard mode of play. You're not acknowledging this directly but your phrasing here shows you do inherently understand it to be true.


My reason for makig these points is the one that I stated upthread - that the approaches to authorship, backstory management, scene-framing, etc that are identified with a range of different RPGs (including Forge ones) didn't come from nowhere c 1995.


You're arguing something in this one quoted passage that no one else is arguing against but the leap you are making from that seems to simultaneously need to dismiss the first five to seven years of RPG development as insignificant (because citations that support your arguments from this period are thin or overstated) and act as if the rules thence forth fully support modern storytelling conceits rather than being introduced over time as exceptions to standard gameplay (which everyone who has discussed it in this thread seems to agree come from how some GMs and players, including the designers who still played the game, might have played at their own game tables).


They have their origins in real problems of RPGing,


Here's where you go even further off the tracks and show your belief that your idea of fun is everyone's idea of fun, as you are identifying what you see as problematic then casting it as universally problematic. I won't join deeply into this tangential argument as the premise is obviously faulty but I will point out the following. What you term as "real problems" are just how folks played (and many still do and some just starting with new games like DCC do) but doesn't seem to agree with your own way of playing. I think this underlying bias hinders your ability to objectively examine the development of RPGs, RPGs with storytelling elements, and full-fledged storytelling games.
 

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