D&D 5E RE: Tarasque vs. 5th lv. Wizard scenario - how does Wizard know to use Acid Splash?!?

[Anthony Terry]

"Thrashing wildly, flinging debris in all directions" is unlikely to launch a real ranged attack, i.e. further than its body length. If the Tarrasque thrashes wildly, he won't be throwing houses 240' ranges as suggested earlier in this thread, and therefore he won't be a threat to the fighter with a long bow at all, and maybe not to the wizard with Acid Splash either.

I went back and re-read the AD&D 2nd edition version of the Tarrasque. I noted a few things about the AD&D Tarrasque:

1.) It's not the "most feared monster," it is the most dreaded monster native to the Prime Material Plane. Big difference.
2.) It automatically causes fear-induced paralysis in any creature under 3 HD who can see it, at any range, and likewise causes those under 7 HD to automatically flee. There is no range limit and no saving throw. In my mind, this ability alone is sufficient to justify its reputation as Most Dreaded Monster, even if its actual combat stats were those of a giant space hamster. "Frightens everybody" = "reputation for being frightening." If the 5E monster had this ability, there would be question at all whether the 5th level wizard could kill it: of course he can't, he's too busy running away.
3.) Unstoppable regeneration of course is a big deal. You cannot kill it permanently without a wish--although of course there is nothing to prevent you from being clever and polymorphing it, dropping it into a volcano, or simply chaining it to the bottom of the sea so it can drown over and over. But you can't just kill it once with magic arrows and be done.
4.) Totally immune to all psionics is a nice touch. Unfortunately it's not immune to all magic, so there's a huge vulnerability nevertheless.
5.) There are specific guidelines on how active it is. It will attack and then sleep for 4d4 years, and the ratio of sleeping:active seems to be about 30:1.

This suggests two simple changes you could make to the 5E Tarrasque to make it a worthy foe:

1.) Give it unstoppable regeneration: 10 HP per round, negatable only by Wishing it dead while it is at 0 HP.
2.) Also, take the range limit off its Frightful Presence and nix the "immune for 24 hours" bit.

Voila! Tarrasque now deserves its reputation again.

A Decision clearly you are better qualified to make than my self and probably the person writing the encounter for the module also in the first place. So I really don't see the point your making, i haven't even read the module, and all i have ever been arguing against is the 2 premises put forward that 1. Every monster of high level should have something in its stat block to deal with flying creatures and 2. A Game designer should go through the effort of describing every possible way of encountering every single monster in said game and have given valid reasons against both does statements that havent actually been met with any supportive argument.

Infact the only argument I've received about its intelligence, that further supported leaving the stat block blank as after brief challenge it was suggested that he wouldn't even have intelligence to do much else so why is there a need to include anything else? Followed clearly your own knowledge on what this monster should be able to achieve, or what your comfortable with at least, both of which supports the idea that both of the earliest statements are absurd and things like this are better left to individual Dungeon Masters. Not every monster with a high CR needs to be SUPERKILLERTXKRINGWITHLAZERS.

Last time i checked in the Monster Manual it will normally even give you fluffy text indicating how these particular monsters like to behave and act in combat, id suggest the 1st Edition ones over any others for something beyond telling you how they use their stat block ability, if you really feel unable to do it your selves id suggest what your asking for is already there in a far less boring way than giving it a stat block attack.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

A Decision clearly you are better qualified to make than my self and probably the person writing the encounter for the module also in the first place. So I really don't see the point your making, i haven't even read the module, and all i have ever been arguing against is the 2 premises put forward that 1. Every monster of high level should have something in its stat block to deal with flying creatures and 2. A Game designer should go through the effort of describing every possible way of encountering every single monster in said game and have given valid reasons against both does statements that havent actually been met with any supportive argument.

Infact the only argument I've received about its intelligence, that further supported leaving the stat block blank as after brief challenge it was suggested that he wouldn't even have intelligence to do much else so why is there a need to include anything else? Followed clearly your own knowledge on what this monster should be able to achieve, or what your comfortable with at least, both of which supports the idea that both of the earliest statements are absurd and things like this are better left to individual Dungeon Masters. Not every monster with a high CR needs to be SUPERKILLERTXKRINGWITHLAZERS.

Last time i checked in the Monster Manual it will normally even give you fluffy text indicating how these particular monsters like to behave and act in combat, id suggest the 1st Edition ones over any others for something beyond telling you how they use their stat block ability, if you really feel unable to do it your selves id suggest what your asking for is already there in a far less boring way than giving it a stat block attack.

that's great, but my problem isn't "every monster with a high CR needs to be SUPERKILLERTXKRINGWITHLAZERS." it's that the highest CR monster in the game (well tied with tiamat) has an huge whole in it's defenses... one that was in editions past not there (flight hight limit in 4e, super regen in 3e and 2e) and well I have no doubt I will use a big t, and challenge my party with it... as written I see it showing up closer to 10th level then 20th... unless I build a whole encounter around it I can't imagine a party of 16th level PCs not curb stomping it...(by this I mean have a big bad wake it up and send reinforcements)

I even bet I will use this stat block multi time in this edtion... that doesn't mean I can't say "There is a bit of a whole here"

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

A Decision clearly you are better qualified to make than my self and probably the person writing the encounter for the module also in the first place. So I really don't see the point your making, i haven't even read the module, and all i have ever been arguing against is the 2 premises put forward that 1. Every monster of high level should have something in its stat block to deal with flying creatures and 2. A Game designer should go through the effort of describing every possible way of encountering every single monster in said game and have given valid reasons against both does statements that havent actually been met with any supportive argument. *snip* Not every monster with a high CR needs to be SUPERKILLERTXKRINGWITHLAZERS.

(I assume by "the module" you mean the 5E MM, right? Not the AD&D Tarrasque stats, or some specific 5E adventure module.)

I think you're misunderstanding the objection to the Tarrasque. The viewpoint that you characterize as "Every monster of high level should have something in its stat block to deal with flying creatures" is actually closer to "Every [civilization-destroying legendary monster] should have something in its stat block to deal with flying creatures", which is just another way of saying "No monster that cannot deal with flying foes [and other widely-available counters] can be a civilization-destroying legendary monster, because someone would kill it first."

If the Tarrasque were just some CR 30 monster that you could throw at high-level parties, like a scaled-up Bulette, nobody would have a problem with it. The objection is based on the tension between the fluff text which says that the Tarrasque is uber and terrifying, and the game stats which say that it is not. Some people advocate for keeping the fluff and buffing up the stats with uber ranged attacks doing 6d12+lots damage at range 240' (and then there is the secondary debate over whether this constitutes a material change to the stats or is implicit in the STR 30/Gigantic size/humanoid form), and some people would choose to keep the stats and kill the fluff (either "it exists, but it's less scary than dragons" or "maybe it existed once and now it's dead and nobody cares"). Other people would keep the stats and the fluff and just run it as written without worrying why nobody ever killed it before, any more than they worry how a dragon with a treasure hoard gets into a 20'x20' dungeon room. YMMV.

Since I'm somewhat fond of the AD&D Tarrasque, I personally would lean more towards "modify the stats, and do so explicitly," as I hope I've made clear. And then once they are properly terrified of the Tarrasque's reputation, I would introduce the adventurers to the planet Falx, which appears to be covered in Tarrasques--except underground where it is full of Mind Flayers--and watch their heads explode. But you can't do that unless they respect the Tarrasque as a threat in the first place.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Since I'm somewhat fond of the AD&D Tarrasque, I personally would lean more towards "modify the stats, and do so explicitly," as I hope I've made clear. And then once they are properly terrified of the Tarrasque's reputation, I would introduce the adventurers to the planet Falx, which appears to be covered in Tarrasques--except underground where it is full of Mind Flayers--and watch their heads explode. But you can't do that unless they respect the Tarrasque as a threat in the first place.

I love Flax... the whole idea of it rocks... and as sad as it is to say, if I ran a Raw stat block of the Big T today and put 5 in an encounter, a well prepped 20th level party would ride right over it... and then each get 155,000 XP, and ask if they could do that again...

my answer is to change it to CR14, and keep the fluff...

 

[Elderbrain]

(sigh...) There is nothing wrong with the Tarasque, and it does not have "a huge hole in its defenses" unless you arbitrarily give it one by forbidding it from taking any actions not explicitly spelled out in its Stat block. Apparently the devs need to print "THIS MONSTER CAN THROW ROCKS" in large print next to every MM entry featuring a creature with humanoid-type arms, or else some people will pretend said arms are useless appendages... somebody mentioned the T - Rex earlier, but there's no comparison. The T - Rex's arms, while strong, are so stubby that it couldn't pick up the rock to begin with, let alone throw it. The Tarasque, on the other hand, has arms and hands that would not look out of place on a troll or such, other than their size.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

(sigh...) There is nothing wrong with the Tarasque, and it does not have "a huge hole in its defenses" unless you arbitrarily give it one by forbidding it from taking any actions not explicitly spelled out in its Stat block. Apparently the devs need to print "THIS MONSTER CAN THROW ROCKS" in large print next to every MM entry featuring a creature with humanoid-type arms

Throwing rocks isn't sufficient. It has to be able to throw rocks at ranges up to 400' at the minimum, which BTW is something that PCs can't do and for which the Improvised Weapons rules won't help.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Apparently the devs need to print "THIS MONSTER CAN THROW ROCKS" in large print next to every MM entry featuring a creature .

only if (and that is a big if) the creatures plan that the creature would have better then the improvised weapons rules they created...

 

[Paraxis]

(sigh...) There is nothing wrong with the Tarasque, and it does not have "a huge hole in its defenses" unless you arbitrarily give it one by forbidding it from taking any actions not explicitly spelled out in its Stat block. Apparently the devs need to print "THIS MONSTER CAN THROW ROCKS" in large print next to every MM entry

No you are missing some key points.

Some of the things that are issues.
Does the Tarasque have the Int to throw things to defend itself? It has the same Int score as most animals that don't use tools, ape's have a 6 and baboons have a 4, the poor dumb Tarasque has a 3.

If it is does think of throwing things how to implement it as an action?
It would be a single action as it doesn't have multi attack with thrown things. So that there is rather ineffective as an option compared to it's CR.
Do you base the damage off of improvised weapons?
Do you base it off of giants thrown rocks? If so why? The giants do that as sport and warfare, thats why they are good at it and it is noted in the stat black.
Do you base if off of siege weapons? If so why?
Does it use Dex to hit? It should, if so again not much of an attack bonus for it's CR.
What would the range be?

All these issues and this many pages of debate, I think is enough to say it should have this covered in it's stat block.

 

[Anthony Terry]

that's great, but my problem isn't "every monster with a high CR needs to be SUPERKILLERTXKRINGWITHLAZERS." it's that the highest CR monster in the game (well tied with tiamat) has an huge whole in it's defenses... one that was in editions past not there (flight hight limit in 4e, super regen in 3e and 2e) and well I have no doubt I will use a big t, and challenge my party with it... as written I see it showing up closer to 10th level then 20th... unless I build a whole encounter around it I can't imagine a party of 16th level PCs not curb stomping it...(by this I mean have a big bad wake it up and send reinforcements)

I even bet I will use this stat block multi time in this edtion... that doesn't mean I can't say "There is a bit of a whole here"

And if you stood their and fought it with nothing on your stat block from the sounds of it without using very select methods it would indeed be the very highest CR in the game... Low intel monsters with High CR are meant to be beaten with guess what intelligence, so i really do not understand the issue, if figured out ligimitally in game, with it being beaten as described. The only real thing here that anyone's put forward as a valid point of view is that they've had allot of characters Meta game the out of this encounter and allot of people have just played it out as written and watched their big bad monster die to said Meta game, how the hell did that have anything to do with any other than them?

Also your point about having to design a how encounter around it, are you for real? Its literally a mythological creature of legend and the second or highest CR in the whole of 5th edition, if your telling me it doesnt deserve a moments thought and effort to make it pretty epic then remind me to not show up at your table any time soon. (tongue and cheek intended opposed to genuine insult) How exactly is this thing encountered any way? Just stood in some of massive cavern with no exits? Just shrink the ceiling? Have him cave it in on top of everyone as hes dieing, possibly trapping the flying wizard? Is there no other more remotely intelligent bad guys around getting involved in this, perhaps if you expect your party of Meta gaming vustly, just have the BBEG thats not got 3 intelligence do the same, and meta game the hell out of them back?

After re reading your post to answer your personal major concern, its difference to other editions, i would suggest this is by far not the only monster to be changed in such a manner and is in slight a hand over from both 3.5 and more so 4th where this happened to allot of monsters, ALLOT and i just don't get what your trying to say about the fluff. The fluff is more attached to the creatures legend, are you suggesting even with its 5th edition stats it hasnt gone round leveling entire civilizations that didn't happen to have a wizard? Even from 1st to 2nd their was a huge shift in monster design away from having by standard unbeatable monsters, by 3.5 even gods had achievable stats. Is this an issue? Sure. Ironically tho its an issue caused by them working towards what your asking for in my personal opinion, simple fights based souly of stat blocks, to be fair i guess its not that much of you to ask if their to adopt that strategy to put perhaps more than minimal effort in but i really don't think its required, at the end of the day if the wizzard called it like the above no one else in the party is even getting any exp, i doubt the thing has treasure, so really at the end of the day what is the problem? Either buff it up to meet the legend because your worlds full of lvl 6+ wizzards or just dont let the whole module hinge on this one encounter for its excitement facter?

 

[Anthony Terry]

No you are missing some key points.

Some of the things that are issues.
Does the Tarasque have the Int to throw things to defend itself? It has the same Int score as most animals that don't use tools, ape's have a 6 and baboons have a 4, the poor dumb Tarasque has a 3.

If it is does think of throwing things how to implement it as an action?
It would be a single action as it doesn't have multi attack with thrown things. So that there is rather ineffective as an option compared to it's CR.
Do you base the damage off of improvised weapons?
Do you base it off of giants thrown rocks? If so why? The giants do that as sport and warfare, thats why they are good at it and it is noted in the stat black.
Do you base if off of siege weapons? If so why?
Does it use Dex to hit? It should, if so again not much of an attack bonus for it's CR.
What would the range be?

All these issues and this many pages of debate, I think is enough to say it should have this covered in it's stat block.

No the only issue now is your unwillingness to accept there is no issue mainly because I personally get the impression you just don't like the monster or at least the monster in its 5th edition format. If you genuinely believe a 3 Intelligence creature is incapable of using its arms to throw a rock then it cant and it will be defeated rather easily by a flying creature. Better hope your pc's don't figure that out or they might actually some how beat this behemoth. If this princable bothers you so greatly replace it with a different monster, that can attack flying creatures?