D&D 5E Great Weapon Master

[Coredump]

Adv negates the penalty, bless & anything else you might have (magic weapon, high rolled stats, whatever) is just gravy.

No. It does not negate the penalty, you *still* have a -5 penalty.

The PC is hidden and attacks, needs a 10 to hit, but has advantage. If he chooses to use GWM, now needs a 15 to hit, but has advantage. You will hit less often with GWM.
They are independent... using GWM *still* provides a penalty and causes you to hit less often. They are two independent adjustments, regardless of how many bonuses you get, you will hit less often with GWM than without. (Caveat: unless the bonuses mean you need less than a 2 to hit)

Using a +2 bow does not 'negate' the cover penalty. Sharpshooter does negate the cover penalty.
WIth a +2 bow, you will still hit less because of cover than without cover.
With Sharpshooter you will hit the same either way.

 

[Coredump]

It works both ways. Looking only at the statistical average only gives part of the story. Maximum output is another aspect to be considered. Looking at just one or the other is less reliable than considering both.

Sure, then don't forget to add in the number of times GWM means you do *no* damage. (HINT: It tends to balance out the larger output, hence why we use averages) And don't forget that you are more likely to 'waste' damage because of overkill when getting fewer higher damage hits.

But what is certain is that the -5/+10 is not a core, intractable concept the game relies on. It is easily removed, for no signficant loss. On the other hand you might find there is much to gain.

Neither is Bless, or the extra attack from PAM, or GS damage being higher than halberd damage, or the bonus shove from Sheild Master etc..... All of which do more 'extra' damage than GWM. Yet somehow GWM needs to be nerfed, but those others are just hunky dory....

 

[Psikerlord#]

No. It does not negate the penalty, you *still* have a -5 penalty.

The PC is hidden and attacks, needs a 10 to hit, but has advantage. If he chooses to use GWM, now needs a 15 to hit, but has advantage. You will hit less often with GWM.
They are independent... using GWM *still* provides a penalty and causes you to hit less often. They are two independent adjustments, regardless of how many bonuses you get, you will hit less often with GWM than without. (Caveat: unless the bonuses mean you need less than a 2 to hit)

Using a +2 bow does not 'negate' the cover penalty. Sharpshooter does negate the cover penalty.
WIth a +2 bow, you will still hit less because of cover than without cover.
With Sharpshooter you will hit the same either way.

It effectively negates the penalty. Adv is worth about +5 on your roll as I understand it, putting you back to about your normal hit chance.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Sure, then don't forget to add in the number of times GWM means you do *no* damage. (HINT: It tends to balance out the larger output, hence why we use averages) And don't forget that you are more likely to 'waste' damage because of overkill when getting fewer higher damage hits.



Neither is Bless, or the extra attack from PAM, or GS damage being higher than halberd damage, or the bonus shove from Sheild Master etc..... All of which do more 'extra' damage than GWM. Yet somehow GWM needs to be nerfed, but those others are just hunky dory....

I will just reiterate that you cant get hung up on averages, coz thats not how we experience the game, and, too many variables to consider. I very much doubt bless, PAM, or the shove from shield master come even remotely close to the "always on" +10 per hit damage boost GWM gets, with it's almost negligible -5 penalty once stacked with flanking adv, bless, a magic sword, high rolled stats, and higher prof bonus due to levelling (given ACs are fairly flat, BA and all).... all of which are pretty much available all the time for most parties.

But if it's working in your game, by all means continue to use it. I dont want to spoil your fun, every table is different and the PC mix will vary. I only wish to share my experience, which is that our game has played with and without the -5/+10, and overall table fun has increased since we removed it.

 

[Coredump]

It effectively negates the penalty. Adv is worth about +5 on your roll as I understand it, putting you back to about your normal hit chance.

But they are independent of each other, no matter what bonuses you have... GWM means you *HIT LESS* than you would without using GWM.


Lets say you have $50, and you go to buy the PHB.
On the way you find another $50.
You buy the PHB, you are still *down* $50. You would have had $100..... but you only have $50


Lets say adv gives you a +5. Normally you need a 16 to hit; So with advantage you would only need a 11 to hit.... but with GWM you need a 16. Using GWM means you *hit less* than you would have, you would have hit half the time, and now you don't. Yes, you are back to where you 'started'... but you could have been at needing only a 11.

 

[Coredump]

. I very much doubt bless, PAM, or the shove from shield master come even remotely close to the "always on" +10 per hit damage boost GWM gets, with it's almost negligible -5 penalty once stacked with flanking adv, bless, a magic sword, high rolled stats, and higher prof bonus due to levelling (given ACs are fairly flat, BA and all)..

Then you are not paying attention, and are choosing to be willfully ignorant. I have shown you the math on several occasions, and you are refusing to acknowledge it because it goes against how you 'feel' it should be.

And the +10 is *not* 'always on' because in many situations using GWM does *LESS* damage than not using it. The -5 to hit is a big deal.... adv and bless and magic sword and prof bonus etc... those are 'always on', and those will also apply to PAM and SM etc.

But if it's working in your game, by all means continue to use it. I dont want to spoil your fun, every table is different and the PC mix will vary. I only wish to share my experience, which is that our game has played with and without the -5/+10, and overall table fun has increased since we removed it.

Look, I don't care if you guys don't use it, I don't care if you nerf magic to only 1 spell a day because you think it is more fun that way. I only care when you refuse to acknowledge the reality of how it effects the actual gameplay. Using GWM means you are more likely to do bigger damage, and more likely to do NO damage, which is why we use the 'average' all of the time.

 

[kerbarian]

Polearm Master has been brought up multiple times now as an example of why GWM isn't overpowered because Polearm Master is even better. Polearm Master is indeed a strong feat, but GWM still clearly outstrips it in what I'd consider typical situations.

I'll use a 5th-level barbarian with a greatsword as an example, using Reckless Attack. It's true that Advantage helps out GWM a lot, but it's not that hard to get. A barbarian with Reckless Attack is a simple way to get it that's built directly into the class; fighters and such would need to work with the rest of their party more.

I'll have the barbarian fighting a Troll; AC 15 is above average for enemies in the barbarian's level range, hurting GWM a bit in the comparison.

The base barbarian's average damage per round is 20.67 (2 attacks hitting on an 8 for 2d6+4 damage, with Advantage).

Now we give the barbarian the Polearm Master feat (assume he's a variant human so he doesn't have to sacrifice strength for it). His average damage per round increases to 23.69 (3 attacks hitting on an 8 with Advantage, two for 1d10+4 and one for 1d4+4), an increase of 15%.

Then we give him GWM instead of Polearm Master, and he makes all attacks at -5/+10. His average damage per round becomes 28.25 (2 attacks hitting on a 13 for 2d6+14 damage, with Advantage), an increase of 37%.

Actually both feats are even stronger than that since they can both grant extra attacks -- Polearm Master via opportunity attacks and GWM on every crit or kill. I'd say the advantage goes even further towards GWM here because the extra attacks it grants hit much harder and can be taken with Advantage (at the time an enemy walks up to you and triggers an OA, you're unlikely to have Advantage and can't use Reckless Attack).

Including the extra attacks, GWM is likely to be a 60%+ boost in damage vs. not having the feat, and I consider this a fairly reasonable and representative situation.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Then you are not paying attention, and are choosing to be willfully ignorant. I have shown you the math on several occasions, and you are refusing to acknowledge it because it goes against how you 'feel' it should be.

And the +10 is *not* 'always on' because in many situations using GWM does *LESS* damage than not using it. The -5 to hit is a big deal.... adv and bless and magic sword and prof bonus etc... those are 'always on', and those will also apply to PAM and SM etc.

Look, I don't care if you guys don't use it, I don't care if you nerf magic to only 1 spell a day because you think it is more fun that way. I only care when you refuse to acknowledge the reality of how it effects the actual gameplay. Using GWM means you are more likely to do bigger damage, and more likely to do NO damage, which is why we use the 'average' all of the time.

You've shown no such thing with your maths. The averaging process involved is vague and highly unreliable, being based on an assortment of whiteroom assumptions. And indeed, as you conceded, the averaging process ignores the higher max damage potential the -5/+10 enables.

Your maths is not as reliable as my in play experience. I largely ignore it because it is a mistake to give it much weight. If you prefer to rely on your maths, by all means do so.

 

[Psikerlord#]

But they are independent of each other, no matter what bonuses you have... GWM means you *HIT LESS* than you would without using GWM.


Lets say you have $50, and you go to buy the PHB.
On the way you find another $50.
You buy the PHB, you are still *down* $50. You would have had $100..... but you only have $50


Lets say adv gives you a +5. Normally you need a 16 to hit; So with advantage you would only need a 11 to hit.... but with GWM you need a 16. Using GWM means you *hit less* than you would have, you would have hit half the time, and now you don't. Yes, you are back to where you 'started'... but you could have been at needing only a 11.

Thing is you usually dont need 16 to hit. You usually need about a 6 or 7, because of bounded accuracy and low ACs for monsters across the board. This is exacerbated by the fact that magic weapons, high rolled stats, bless, flanking adv, etc are not really factored into the game's underlying assumptions, but are easily obtained in play. Which brings your minimum roll down further to 4, 3 or even less (much less if you stack all those enablers, like +1 weapon, 20 stat, bless 1-4, adv for effective +5, higher prof bonus another 1-3). Add to this a multitude of abilities that will make sure you hit more often (maneuvers, bardic inspiration, portents, etc) and you are almost constantly hitting.

The longer the game goes on, the less meaningful the -5 is, and the +10 dmg simply becomes a pure add on bonus for no significant opportunity cost. The claim "oh but you miss more", in actual play, applies less and less frequently the longer the campaign goes. No other feat does this kind of extra damage. PAM happens once a combat, not every attack. Shield master adv gain? Just flank, same thing. Bless? Adds to hit, but you're already hitting anyway, so it doesnt really add anything much by itself. Instead it's importance is as a GWM +10 dmg enabler.

Anyways... le sigh. We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Celtavian]

You've shown no such thing with your maths. The averaging process involved is vague and highly unreliable, being based on an assortment of whiteroom assumptions. And indeed, as you conceded, the averaging process ignores the higher max damage potential the -5/+10 enables.

Your maths is not as reliable as my in play experience. I largely ignore it because it is a mistake to give it much weight. If you prefer to rely on your maths, by all means do so.

Not to mention the math doesn't take into account that players save all their bonus abilities for the big encounters against the tough creatures. So you're going to see most of your action surging, raging, superiority dice, best buffs, and the like during the most important encounter, which is going to increase hit chances making GWM more valuable, especially when compared to other fighting styles given defensive or dueling styles have no way to boost damage output.