D&D 5E What is Over-Powered?

[Hussar]

What can you suggest?

I'm not much of a mechanics guy, but, I'd say you'd tie maybe half cleric level to whatever CR it can turn, minimum of 1. Total numbers of enemies isn't quite as important, because, well, let's face it, if you're facing multiple liches, the PC's have bigger problems than how many liches can be turned with one check. That should keep clerics pretty much in line with turning in AD&D.

Just as a question though, if you're cutting PC HP and then cutting monster Damage by the same ratio, what' the point? Seems a bit unnecessary. What difference does it make if the PC has 10 HP and the baddy does 10 damage or the PC has 5 HP and the baddy does 5 HP?

 

[SirAntoine]

I'm not much of a mechanics guy, but, I'd say you'd tie maybe half cleric level to whatever CR it can turn, minimum of 1. Total numbers of enemies isn't quite as important, because, well, let's face it, if you're facing multiple liches, the PC's have bigger problems than how many liches can be turned with one check. That should keep clerics pretty much in line with turning in AD&D.

Just as a question though, if you're cutting PC HP and then cutting monster Damage by the same ratio, what' the point? Seems a bit unnecessary. What difference does it make if the PC has 10 HP and the baddy does 10 damage or the PC has 5 HP and the baddy does 5 HP?

I'd like the numbers to mean as much as they do in both editions, where possible.

 

[Diamabel]

Bear in mind that SirAntoine is the OP of this thread, so to a certain extent he gets to define what the intent is of the thread.

Sure, but "What is overpowered?" is quite a significant difference from a complete system redesign

I would ask this question to SirAntoine: What about 5th edition DO you like? From what you have posted so far, it seems like it may be easier to take what you like from 5th edition and move them into 1st edition, rather than vice-versa.

 

[Diamabel]

I'd like the numbers to mean as much as they do in both editions, where possible.

I would argue that the numbers mean anything only within the system they were designed for.

By changing *some* numbers within a given system, you are going to throw the balance off - if you lower monster HP by 50%, suddenly Fireball becomes twice as powerful, for instance. So you lower Fireball damage.. and it becomes worse than other options, so you lower those as well.. and on and on it goes, until you have cut everything by 50%..

Consider too, within bounded accuracy.. unless you have very high AC, Hitpoints are your only reliable defense- even Kobolds hit a Plate armoured character on a 14 or better. By lowering the size of PC hit dice+dropping monster damage, High constitution, hill dwarf +1 hp/level, etc.. all become instantly much more valuable. So does healing, unless you reduce the amount healed by characters as well.

So far, the changes suggested seem very arbitrary- Abilities nerfed seemingly at random, without any sort of consistency or eye towards an end. To propose a system redesign of that magnitude, start from the ground up, with a clear, stated goal in mind! Provide *reasons* for suggested changes.

If you want to mod 5th to a system that plays more like 1st ed.. consider *which parts* of 1st ed you are aiming for... difficulty? realism? Rather than just "numbers too big, plz fix"

 

[SirAntoine]

Sure, but "What is overpowered?" is quite a significant difference from a complete system redesign

I would ask this question to SirAntoine: What about 5th edition DO you like? From what you have posted so far, it seems like it may be easier to take what you like from 5th edition and move them into 1st edition, rather than vice-versa.

It needs a lot of attention. The 5th Edition is trying to reunite the community, and I am lending a little help. The designers of Wizards of the Coast have put their heart and soul into this edition. You have no idea how much.

I want to see an end to "edition wars", and "TSR-era D&D vs. Wizards of the Coast-era D&D".

 

[Diamabel]

It needs a lot of attention. The 5th Edition is trying to reunite the community, and I am lending a little help. The designers of Wizards of the Coast have put their heart and soul into this edition. You have no idea how much.

I want to see an end to "edition wars", and "TSR-era D&D vs. Wizards of the Coast-era D&D".

You say the designers have put their heart and soul into this edition.. and I believe that. What it also seems like you are saying is "this system is terrible, they didn't do a very good job of it"

I believe the goal was oldschool feel with modern mechanics, with a focus on the narrative rather than rules.. and they've been pretty successful on that front. A Fusion of old and new, with appeal for all.(well, most.)

 

[SirAntoine]

You say the designers have put their heart and soul into this edition.. and I believe that. What it also seems like you are saying is "this system is terrible, they didn't do a very good job of it"

I believe the goal was oldschool feel with modern mechanics, with a focus on the narrative rather than rules.. and they've been pretty successful on that front. A Fusion of old and new, with appeal for all.(well, most.)

To say "this system is terrible" would be a world different from saying "they didn't do a very good job of it".
You seem to think any expression of the latter, or in fact any serious criticism, is the same as the former.

Perhaps compared to the latest editions and Pathfinder, 5th Edition does indeed have a more oldschool feel, but it is a far cry from what was promised by Wizards of the Coast, and in my opinion, it falls flat on its face in so far as providing an oldschool feel. Since so much of the oldschool feel came from the oldschool mechanics, 5th Edition can't hope to have it unless it undergoes a revision. An impossible task, maybe, but given how much the designers put into it, they may yet prove up to the task.

 

[Diamabel]

To say "this system is terrible" would be a world different from saying "they didn't do a very good job of it".
You seem to think any expression of the latter, or in fact any serious criticism, is the same as the former.

Perhaps compared to the latest editions and Pathfinder, 5th Edition does indeed have a more oldschool feel, but it is a far cry from what was promised by Wizards of the Coast, and in my opinion, it falls flat on its face in so far as providing an oldschool feel. Since so much of the oldschool feel came from the oldschool mechanics, 5th Edition can't hope to have it unless it undergoes a revision. An impossible task, maybe, but given how much the designers put into it, they may yet prove up to the task.

Any serious criticism? give me a break. You are just arguing semantics.

You seem to be equating "oldschool feel" with arcane and inaccessible rules, useless or overpowered abilities, ultra punishing mechanics, nonsensical restrictions and "small numbers".

5th *feels* alot more like ad&d 1st or 2nd edition than 3.5/4th.. it's not supposed to be a COPY of those earlier versions.

Subjectively, I feel that this is the best D&D edition yet. It's not without flaws, sure.. but I would not want to return to the punishing and often poorly designed (again, in my opinion) inaccessible rules.

 

[Cernor]

Perhaps compared to the latest editions and Pathfinder, 5th Edition does indeed have a more oldschool feel, but it is a far cry from what was promised by Wizards of the Coast, and in my opinion, it falls flat on its face in so far as providing an oldschool feel. Since so much of the oldschool feel came from the oldschool mechanics, 5th Edition can't hope to have it unless it undergoes a revision. An impossible task, maybe, but given how much the designers put into it, they may yet prove up to the task.

What were you expecting 5e to be like? That is, what do you think WotC promised, and how did you get that impression? I'm asking because I only got into D&D a couple of months before 5e released, so I didn't follow the news during the playtest at all.

What old-school mechanics are you looking to reproduce? Save-or-die effects have been replaced with save-or-save-or-die, which is IMO good for avoiding anticlimactic deaths at higher levels (like a basilisk petrifying the party cleric who's the only one who can reverse petrification). If you want them, simply take away the second save, and BOOM! Save-or-die is back.
If it's about having an army of hirelings and followers (something I've been led to believe was mandatory back in O/AD&D), you can still do that in 5e, but it isn't the default anymore. Maybe after 40 years, they've learned that people prefer to be Big Damn Heroes who act as a (mostly) self-sufficient band.

 

[Remathilis]

So basically, "everything not in AD&D" is OP?

Ok.

I get to whip this out again: The Revised 5e (AD&D inspired) Fighter for you old-skoolers.