D&D 5E can warlocks be good guys?

[jayoungr]

This thread on RPG.net may also be of interest:

How much discrimination against warlocks is OK?

In post #22 of that thread, Unkajosh describes the Great Old One pact warlock he's playing (in a game that I also play in), also responding to the idea that warlocks with no negative consequences for the pact are boring:

I'm sorry, but I have to entirely reject the notion that Warlocks are either soul-stealing monsters or utterly flavorless.

I'm playing one in a 5E game, and I had great fun with the setup for the Pact.

My character, Kezzie, has a Great Old One pact. Her patron, That Which Has A Thousand Eyes, is a being outside our reality that is utterly alien, utterly incomprehensible to most human minds. It is vast and powerful, and it has recently discovered all that we call "reality."

And it's curious. We are, to it, as utterly alien as the reverse-- but its mind is infinitely strong; it will not go mad if it beholds us.

It wants to observe us, learn about us, watch the pretty patterns that we make, try to comprehend our alien ways.

Kezzie discovered a way to contact That Which Has A Thousand Eyes, and she was one of the few who was able to survive even shallow contact relatively sane. And they made their pact.

It uses her senses and her primal thoughts and reactions as ways to view our world; by processing through a native mind, it can understand what's going just a little bit more. And Kezzie, in turn, gets to tap into primal power and knowledge that she'd never imagined, learning ways to shape the raw magic of the universe by the sheer force of her personality. She has tattooed eyes on her body that TWHATE uses to see all around her, too. And she adventures, showing her patron our world, pointing out interesting details.

It's made her a bit crazy, but she went from despair to joy with her pact, as suddenly, she realized that the world wasn't out to crush her-- it was just random, and that was a tremendous relief! There were great powers in the world, but they weren't after her-- it was just chance, and luck, and now she had the ability to understand, so why not rejoice? An uncaring universe is better than one that hates you...

Her patron will ask its price, of course. It will ask her to show it more things. In doing so, she understands more of it, and gains more power in ways that wizards and sorcerers simply cannot understand, serving a force that does not ask for worship, merely comprehension, even as that comprehension slowly makes her seem madder to the rest of the world.

And that is my Warlock. Kezzie is not an evil, soul-stealing monster.

And I defy you to say that she is boring or vanilla.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Agreed with Ezekiel. I have a fundamental distaste for the idea of gods granting warlock pacts, as that's precisely what clerics and paladins are for.

But then, I also have a fundamental distaste for the idea of "celestial" or other good-aligned patrons, and those seem to be a fairly popular house rule, so what do I know?

I approach this as a student of religion and culture, so my take is perhaps a bit more nuanced than many campaigns are looking for, but perhaps this angle can help explain it.

[sblock=weird diversion]
For me, Warlocks are occultists and charismatics. Inspiration-wise, they are Alister Crowley and John Dee. They are kabbalists and thelemics and gnostics. Pythagoreans and Socrates. Even vodun and saint-cults and Abraham and Ezekiel and prophets and ascetics and dervishes and snake-handlers. They are something of a bridge between the learned magic of the wizard and the spiritual magic of the cleric.

There's a HUGE tradition of "speaking with angels" in the occult tradition (and this is pretty much always done in ritualized, esoteric ways that are condemned by the proper churches of the time). Stuff like enochian magic and Rosicrucianism drip with this, most obviously, but I'd even draw inspiration from things like Santa Muerte and revelatory hallucinogenic experiences and shamanism.

It's more broadly about one's relationship to the origin of one's power. Clerics explicitly worship their gods in a very Judeo-Christian, "sacrifice, appeasement, good behavior, lots of songs and prayers, in a church" kind of way. Warlocks don't worship their patrons, but they have an agreement, a bond cemented over their shared goals, a partnership more than a loyalty and service. Their patrons aren't people they always agree with, or beings that are always looking for worship and sacrifice.

Lets take a hypothetical warlock whose patron is Bahamut (or one of Bahamut's underlings acting in Bahamut's name), a paladin who swears themselves to Bahamut, and a cleric belonging to the church of Bahamut. Lets also throw in a Wizard who worships Bahamut, and a Sorcerer who believes Bahamut is a distant parent. How might these different classes approach this one source of power?

• For the cleric, Bahamut is an entity to be worshiped, the best among a pantheon of deities, one that is worthy of emulation. The cleric is trained in a church, and wields divine power on behalf of all who pray to Bahamut. His responsibility is to honor Bahamut's commands, and, especially, to advance the agenda and worship of Bahamut. He uses the magic granted by Bahamut to nurture and protect their fellow faithful. When the cleric gets to Name Level, he founds a church in the name of Bahamut, and gathers followers.
• For the paladin, Bahamut is something to be devoted to, to swear an oath by. If the cleric wields divine power on behalf of the faithful in a church, using it as a shield, a paladin uses it as a sword - to slay the church's enemies. Because Bahamut is good, this likely is as a defensive role - the enemies of the church are those who attack the church, those who seek Bahamut's end (like Tiamat). The clerics bolster the faithful, while the paladins destroy those who seek the faithful's end.
• For the wizard, Bahamut is not a direct source of power, but is perhaps a guiding influence over how she gathers and uses the power. The SOURCE of her power is knowledge - she uses magic based on academic information, statistics, mathematics, astronomy, pattern, and memory. She may credit Bahamut with the ultimate creation of this ordered world, and likely credits him with its continued existence, but her spells come from her knowledge. And her knowledge is gained through facts, figures, tests, demonstrations, through science, in the rarefied halls of academia. Perhaps Bahamut is even a patron of her school (perhaps she is an abjurer!), acknowledging the ability of magic to unveil the mysteries of the world. The wizard gets no more power from Bahamut than a fighter worshiping the same god would get.
• For the sorcerer, Bahamut is a source of power, but there is no formal relationship there. Her power comes because she has the blood of a dragon-god flowing through her veins, the genetic DNA of him, but she is no more beholden to him than you are to your great-great-great-grandmother. His power is hers now, to do with as she desires, and she need not answer to his demands.
• For the warlock, Bahamut is a patron - one who supports their work in the world. The warlock doesn't bow to the god in worship, or care one whit for those who do, any more than the Sorcerer does. Yet the bond is closer - the Warlock depends on the charity of their patron going forward, and always risks displeasing the being if they do not deliver results that delight them. This is not the distant relationship of one who emulates the god - indeed, the Warlock may have very different goals from that of her patron. But the goals overlap, at least in the results. The warlock and Bahamut share an agenda in the world. Perhaps the warlock is a dragon-hunter and Bahamut, pleased at the destruction of Tiamat's creations, empowers the warlock to go about his grim business. A Paladin would only act in devotion to what Bahamut stands for, but the warlock doesn't care what Bahamut stands for, only about the power they can be given by him. A paladin might not risk the lives of innocents on a desperate gamble to slay a green dragon, and a cleric would not be overly concerned unless it was harassing the faithful, but a warlock? That's someone who might do something a little reckless. And of course, the churches and the colleges deride this as false, untrue, charlatan, dangerous, outside the norm...and they're not necessarily wrong. A church stands for the faithful, a college for the knowledge of all, but a warlock? They just stand for themselves.

In this way, Bahamut may grant many kinds of magic. The spell list of a dragon-sorcerer, an abjurer, a cleric of life, a paladin of devotion, and a possible celestial-pact warlock all believe their power derives from Bahamut in some way, but have very different purposes for that power and relationships with that source. A warlock always risks something with their pact - their mind, their soul. With a celestial pact, a warlock will be risking divine judgement in a way that a cleric never really has to deal with. A cleric is loyal, and aims to please. A warlock who turns celestial magic to evil ends, though? THAT is a dangerous foe worthy of divine wrath indeed.

Anyway, I'm not really trying to "sell" it, it's fine if your game never has a warlock swearing a pact with a celestial, but I find it a very intriguing idea, with a lot of resonance for various historical tropes that typically get a little neglected in fantasy RPG play. But that's just my over-wrought idea.
[/sblock]

 

[Mouseferatu]

Very interesting and well thought, KM. I won't say you've changed my mind, but you've at least got me re-contemplating.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Olgun wants a word with you.

 

[GSHamster]

That's an interesting post, KM. But I don't really see the upside for Bahamut in agreeing to this pact. The thing about a pact is that the benefits need to go two ways (or involve trickery).

Bahamut has his clerics and paladins to carry out his will in the world. I don't see what benefit Bahamut gets from engaging in these "side-deals" with self-interested, not-particularly-reliable parties.

 

[BigVanVader]

That's an interesting post, KM. But I don't really see the upside for Bahamut in agreeing to this pact. The thing about a pact is that the benefits need to go two ways (or involve trickery).

Bahamut has his clerics and paladins to carry out his will in the world. I don't see what benefit Bahamut gets from engaging in these "side-deals" with self-interested, not-particularly-reliable parties.

Results. Think of Clerics and Paladins as the police force. Powerful, but they've also got rules and red tape that prevent them from crossing the line. A masked vigilante, however, doesn't have those same rules tying him up.

 

[Klaus]

Lots of great posts in this thread!

 

[BigVanVader]

Mine are the best.

 

[steeldragons]

Bahamut is a terrible example, specifically because he is a deity. But the points/differences in perspective and relationship to the source power are well-taken, regardless of name.

I would not permit a warlock of bahamut, specifically, because bahamut would not have warlocks. Not because he is a celestial, but because it is divine/a deity. But some other celestial non-divinity creature might, perhaps, indulge one...I prefer and presume, as others have said about the archfey, they would not be terribly Lawful in outlook (those who want others for following the rules are what clerics and paladin types are for).

That rather follows from KM's analysis of the fringe religious/magical practitioner types...the warlock archetype is not one of the rule-followers. They're not in this pact to follow rules, they're in it for the power and/or the personal relationship (vs. devotion or servitude). Hence the need for the pact in the first place...so they are bound to/by it [the pact]...not the rules and oaths of worship and devotion.

 

[I'm A Banana]

That's an interesting post, KM. But I don't really see the upside for Bahamut in agreeing to this pact. The thing about a pact is that the benefits need to go two ways (or involve trickery).

Bahamut has his clerics and paladins to carry out his will in the world. I don't see what benefit Bahamut gets from engaging in these "side-deals" with self-interested, not-particularly-reliable parties.

So, again, just to be clear, I'm totally not trying to "sell" celestial-pact warlocks. The way I figure it, what a warlock makes a pact with vs. what a cleric worships vs. what a paladin follows vs. whatever can be a pretty campaign-defining element, and I don't even know that my idea dovetails with anything WotC would be interested in pursuing for the Warlock class (they may WANT the division between gods/"others" for some narrative reason).

That disclaimer out of the way, the way I figure it, the thing with warlocks is that they use secret knowledge. This is true even if that knowledge is of divine origin -- warlocks have access to divine mysteries that the clerics don't have, that the Church has suppressed, that Bahamut doesn't want his rank-and-file to really know about. Maybe its a Lost Gospel of Bahamut, maybe it's a mystery cult that takes pilgrimages to Celestia through a secret portal, maybe its a quiet cult of dragon-assassins who pursue "officially unsanctioned" business in the wilds where the church's laws cannot follow. Divine warlocks follow apocrypha and belong to heretical sects and seek suppressed lore.

This is part of what makes them good to represent various prophets or cult leaders - half-mad with divine wisdom and emerging from the wasteland with divine revelations that are completely outside of the church's bounds. They can be vessels through which the gods speak what should not be spoken, agents of apocalypse and harbringers of dark times.

These are useful to the gods as ways to correct and challenge their churches, as agents in places that churches cannot go (a marching army draws attention, a cleric represents the head of a church, but a single warlock comes in beneath the radar and might be working for anyone - or no one), as speakers of the forbidden in places where it is forbidden to speak the truth. A cleric has a concern for the fellow-faithful and the people in the temple...but a warlock is only concerned with themselves, and can do things that would otherwise put innocent lives at risk. They can be useful pawns - a god has no responsibility to a warlock, there's no expectation that the god will "save" them, no real investment. The warlock came by this power in secretive and obtuse methods, "earned" it by his actions, and it isn't a gift.

This does imply that the clerics aren't receiving all of a god's details -- that there's "dirty laundry" out there that maybe they'd want hidden, that being loyal and trusting in the gods who aren't entirely trusting back, that there's lore that they don't want revealed. Which is part of why clerics and warlocks don't get along -- the clerics ascribing the divine magic of the warlocks to lies and tricks and deceptions of the evil lords who have just learned to impersonate the divine, the warlocks protesting...but never protesting in great enough numbers to convince people.

Warlocks also have distinct abilities from clerics - their spell list has quite a different theme. Warlocks may be useful for those abilities alone. Who knows to what use an eldritch bolt might be put in the hands of a creature working with a god?

Why would Bahamut bestow divine gifts on a warlock? Maybe because the warlock has learned something that Bahamut does not want revealed. Maybe because Bahamut sees the utility of a free agent unconnected to the church. Maybe because Bahamut's non-cleric church heirarchy is made up of pretenders and apostates. Maybe because the warlock learns a long-forgotten prayer form that Bahamut still honors. Maybe because they learned how to "wear" a part of Bahamut's power and walk around with it. Maybe lots of things.

You might also ask: why does Nerull need clerics and also necromancers? Why does Oghma need clerics and also druids? Why does any god of war need cleircs and also paladins and also maybe fighters? Does Asmodeus have clerics as well as warlocks? Part of this might just be that Bahamut, being a god, doesn't need 'em, but perhaps creatures like Zaphkiel, Talisid, and Morwel (the rough equivalents of Demogorgon, Asmodeus, and the General of Gehenna) do!