D&D 5E Where does the punitive approach to pc death come from?

[Mark CMG]

I usually find myself in the middle. I wouldn't play D&D if I didn't like the rules and there are better, I guess more "free flowing" systems for a heavier narrative approach where the "game" becomes little more than background noise while we essentially RP out the adventure.

I guess that's what I like about 5th so far, it hits that nice spot between "Here's some rules to run your game." and "Here's some room to make it up as you go." It's not JUST rules and it's not JUST make-believe.

So, more than just a roleplaying game? What rules do you feel help enable storytelling?

 

[Sunseeker]

So, more than just a roleplaying game? What rules do you feel help enable storytelling?

Let me preface with I think storytelling is part-and-parcel with role-playing. What I think helps enable storytelling are the "gaps" in the rules so to speak. All those spots where the DM is forced to decide how something plays out because either there are no rules for it, or the rules are vague on the issue. Where a player's good description can of what they're doing, what they want to do, or how they did do something can be the deciding factor on if that thing actually succeeds. This is where the "story" the narrative description of what happens either to or by the players is able to come into play.

 

[Mark CMG]

Let me preface with I think storytelling is part-and-parcel with role-playing.

Sure, in any RPG with storytelling games elements added that is certainly the case, and I think most RPGs these days add them by default (which helps create the misconception that RPGs and Storytelling games are the same thing).

What I think helps enable storytelling are the "gaps" in the rules so to speak. All those spots where the DM is forced to decide how something plays out because either there are no rules for it, or the rules are vague on the issue. Where a player's good description can of what they're doing, what they want to do, or how they did do something can be the deciding factor on if that thing actually succeeds. This is where the "story" the narrative description of what happens either to or by the players is able to come into play.

Interesting. In those moments, how much narrative control over the setting (and NPCs) do you give the players?

 

[Celebrim]

Many, many times. If I have to run one more caravan duty, or take on one more nest of giant rats in someone's basement, I'd, well ... I'd look for another game.

The 1st level characters in my current campaign survived a city wrecking tsunami and helped fight off an army of deep ones. In past campaigns, 1st level characters have negotiated face to face with a deity.

I don't recall any game involving killing rats in someone's basement. Doesn't that mostly occur in cRPGs? And even then, doesn't it mostly occur as either a humorous lamp shade of the trope or a deadly inversion of it? Planescape:Torment has a 'kill the rats' quest, but Many-as-One is hardly your typical rats in a basement.

I checked on TVTropes and they assert that this happens in PnP Dungeons & Dragons, but tellingly (to my mind) and uncharacteristically they provide no actual examples.

 

[Ranes]

I don't recall any game involving killing rats in someone's basement. Doesn't that mostly occur in cRPGs?

Yes, actually it's one of the first combats you can face in Icewind Dale (beneath the inn).

But The Sunless Citadel's first combat encounter is with dire rats and the citadel is a sort of… basement… thing.

I'll get my (dire) coat...

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

ROUS are not just "rats" Gentlemen.

 

[Eirikrautha]

ROUS are not just "rats" Gentlemen.

They're just a myth. I don't think they exisss....oomph!

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I checked on TVTropes and they assert that this happens in PnP Dungeons & Dragons, but tellingly (to my mind) and uncharacteristically they provide no actual examples.

Most D&D exists outside of published adventure paths. I can assert that rats are a common foe in low-level games, because rats are just dangerous enough that non-combat NPCs don't want to deal with them, but safe enough that level 1 characters probably won't die to them.

Seriously, all the time.

 

[Celebrim]

Most D&D exists outside of published adventure paths. I can assert that rats are a common foe in low-level games, because rats are just dangerous enough that non-combat NPCs don't want to deal with them, but safe enough that level 1 characters probably won't die to them.

I'm not sure. I can't recall using rats on low level characters in the last 20 years or so. There are lots of things that you can slot in the that 'low damage foe' slot that have basically the same stats but aren't rats. I can see it being necessary in 1e, particularly with 'death at 0 hit points' to use foes with damage of 1 or 1d2 to buffer PC's up to 2nd level, but it's really not that necessary lately.

More to the point, there is a vast difference between encountering rats in a dungeon environment and having a quest be performing a mundane task of extermination as applied by a 'rats in the dungeon' quest.

If I had to guess, published modules and D&D have more of a thing with 'large but not too large' vermin than they do with rats. Killing dinner plate sized spiders in ruined castles is more traditional D&D than rats in basements - the original DMG has this as it's example of combat in play. U1, T1 all the classic intro modules involved lots of vermin hidden all over ready to leap out and attack the players. Rats maybe, but hardly as a focus or worthy of becoming the definitive D&D starting encounter.

Basements are rarely a feature of D&D play. D&D doesn't need 'basements'. In a computer game, they form a small screen sized single room dungeon that involves very few developer resources to create and serves as 'tutorial by play' for new players. But in a paper game..?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yes, actually it's one of the first combats you can face in Icewind Dale (beneath the inn).

That's a tutorial on the combat UI interface--the bugs don't even have an attack. Doesn't really count. Also, aren't they bugs and not rats?