D&D 5E can warlocks be good guys?

[BigVanVader]

This isn't related to anything, but I don't really like 'good Dragons'. In the games I run, Dragons are either evil, or neutral. The neutral ones won't attack you on sight, but you only get one strike before being put on their 'burn and eat' list.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Another thing to consider is that while the baked in flavor may be a pact, there's nothing mechanically that is tied to the concept of the pact. A Warlock could easily be flavored as using stolen knowledge. Perhaps he found an ancient tome or carvings in in some ancient cave that unlocked the knowledge that some entity wanted buried. It would be interesting to have a warlock who was constantly dodging agents of an entity while stealing more and more power.

This can give a very "stolen fire of the gods" thing with a celestial warlock.

In fact, because I am a Planescape dork, it makes me think of the Athar faction, who believe divine power is hoarded by jealous gods and actually accessible to anyone within themselves, but the gods have collectively eradicated most knowledge of how to do this. An Athar adventurer who was a warlock (of any stripe, but ESPECIALLY Celestial) would be very thematic, compelling character - and unlike many warlocks, might actually be looking to spread the practice.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

This isn't related to anything, but I don't really like 'good Dragons'. In the games I run, Dragons are either evil, or neutral. The neutral ones won't attack you on sight, but you only get one strike before being put on their 'burn and eat' list.

I'm sympathetic to this point of view. I have "good" dragons, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily on your side. It just means that when he defeats your army in the name of lizard freedom he will probably let the non-combatants go, and will put the combatants in a POW camp until the war is over instead of killing and eating them.

 

[Mephista]

It may be worth mentioning that in the 5e context, a paladin doesn't receive power directly from a god. Their power comes from their oath, and if you have the Oath of Devotion, you can follow a god, or not, and still get powers.

This is actually a misconception. There's no mechanical representation of devotion to a god, but the flavor text of the class constantly makes note of you needing to relate to a god(dess), or, in the case of Oath of the Ancients, to follow the druidic faith of worshiping Nature as a god(dess).

This idea arose from the fact that many of us gamers feel free to rewrite the fluff as it suits us, so if its not a hard mechanic, we ignore it.

To wit, while you're free to change things as you wish, the default context of the paladin DOES rely on gods.

Okay, I'm done. Please continue.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

This is actually a misconception. There's no mechanical representation of devotion to a god, but the flavor text of the class constantly makes note of you needing to relate to a god(dess), or, in the case of Oath of the Ancients, to follow the druidic faith of worshiping Nature as a god(dess).

This idea arose from the fact that many of us gamers feel free to rewrite the fluff as it suits us, so if its not a hard mechanic, we ignore it.

To wit, while you're free to change things as you wish, the default context of the paladin DOES rely on gods.

Okay, I'm done. Please continue.

That's an interesting supposition, but if anything I think the idea must have arisen from the historical fact that AD&D in paladins worked exactly this way. They were not priests of any god, they were in fact a cavalier variant, and their power came from their personal purity (alignment). In fact my memory of the 5E PHB tells me that Oath of Devotion paladins still can work exactly this way in 5E; I'm AFB but if you have quotes to prove otherwise I'd be open to reading them.

 

[Mephista]

"A paladin swears to uphold justice and righteousness, to stand with the good things of the world against the encroaching darkness, and to hunt the forces of evil wherever they lurk. Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness, but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work. Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin’s power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god."

From the first page of the paladin section. While the oath is critical to the power of the paladin, I'll point you to the last line there. "A paladin's power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god." As in, the oath is just as important as the god. Implying they're both important.

It continues on, talking about how people are called to the paladin lifestyle by angels and gods, or called to swear their oaths before a god, or fey lord, or some other representative.


Either way, its all immaterial. This is the type of thing that should be campaign and world dependent. In Planescape, I'd be completely and utterly down with a godless paladin. I'd probably encourage it as the default. On Faerun, the exact opposite. The gods have their fingers in everything in Forgotten Realms.

 

[I'm A Banana]

This is actually a misconception. There's no mechanical representation of devotion to a god, but the flavor text of the class constantly makes note of you needing to relate to a god(dess), or, in the case of Oath of the Ancients, to follow the druidic faith of worshiping Nature as a god(dess).

This idea arose from the fact that many of us gamers feel free to rewrite the fluff as it suits us, so if its not a hard mechanic, we ignore it.

To wit, while you're free to change things as you wish, the default context of the paladin DOES rely on gods.

Okay, I'm done. Please continue.

???

Relevant quotes...

Whether sworn before a god's altar and the witness of a priest, in a sacred glade before nature spirits and fey beings, or in a moment of desparation and grief with the dead as the only witness, a paladin's oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion.

...all are bound by oaths that grant them power to do their sacred works. Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin's power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god...

Are you a devoted servant of good...a knight whose oath descends from traditions older than many of the gods....driven by your need for revenge...

(and for the Oath of Devotion specifically)

Many who sweart this oath are devoted to gods of law and good...

The flavor text constantly mentions that you don't need a god to be a paladin. The default context pretty much explicitly does NOT rely on gods, but rather it is the oath and dedication to higher ideals that grant a paladin their powers.

 

[Thyrwyn]

The PHB default for paladins vis-a-vis gods & magic is spelled out in the sidebar on Magic on p. 205:

The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters' access to the weave is mediated by divine power--gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin's oath,

 

[Mephista]

On the Celestial Patron for the Warlock.

The warlock is an occultist, a dark witch, a seeker of forbidden lore. Their patrons are eldritch beings who come over and teach them dark arcane powers, sharing a personal relationship with the warlock. Their magics run to the black; madness, domination, curses. Just look at the warlock on Neverwinter. It actually uses those three Vices from the Book of Vile Darkness as the defining traits of the class. The modern warlock includes the themes taken from the 3e Binder class, where being hunted and opposed by clerics and holy religions was a huge theme. Their magics are necrotic, associated with undead and the lower planes. They bargain with creatures from other planes, bartering their service for scraps of magic and power.

All taken together, a Celestial Patron would be the exact opposite of what makes the warlock, well, a warlock! It would be an anti-warlock! The very nature of the Celestial patron is opposed to the idea of being a warlock.

In fact, in many ways, they are the exact opposite of the Paladin. Where each of the Oaths can be said to represent Justice, Purity, and Love/Beauty, the warlock patrons can be said to embody the Vices of Destruction, Corruption, and Domination. Two fey paths, one an Oath to protect and nurture, the other to drive to others madness. A devote Oath to slay demons, another that is embodied by infernalism and diabolism. A seeker of Justice and Vengence, and a Patron who teaches to dominate the minds and souls of others.




*deep breath*










And then, I point out that we have the Oathbreaker Paladin. If the warlock is truly the opposite of the paladin, then there should be a Celestial Patron for the very same reason we have the anti-paladin subclass. What rises must fall, but what has fallen may yet rise.

However, the Celestial Patron needs to work within the warlock class, and admit to the class strengths and themes, instead of ignoring them or trying to overwrite them into something else. I also think it needs its own Pact Form, since each of the three current patrons are really designed to work with one of the forms, and not the others. And we should also get a Vestige Patron with a Form of the Sigil for a binder warlock path. But that's all another discussion.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The PHB default for paladins vis-a-vis gods & magic is spelled out in the sidebar on Magic on p. 205:

Sure, but nothing about "divine" magic mandates that it comes from gods. 5e doesn't have a sharp power source distinction. Celestial Warlocks have room within this "godless divine magic" territory, too (again, maybe Bahamut doesn't have warlocks, but maybe Zaphkiel does), as do paladins who view tenets of justice and righteousness as things that do not rely on any particular deity to be realized.

From what I'm reading only one class is flavor-wise linked explicitly and only to "gods give me my magic," and that's the cleric. Others might view their power as somehow mediated through a deity (the sidebar on druids and deities, for instance, or many paladins (not EVERY paladin!)). Meanwhile, there's no mention of possible godless clerics a la 3e (though of course they aren't ruled out as something you could invent or introduce).