D&D (2024) The new Warlock is so much better Thematically

[CreamCloud0]

We really needed subclasses/pacts/bloodlines/domains/orders/whatever at level 1.

later just feels wrong.

Imma have to disagree here, Vendral pretty much already said it, everyone has their grace period, learning the ropes and mastering the fundamentals before specialising.

That’s as true for a rogue as it is for a sorcerer or a cleric or anyone else.

 

[mamba]

We really needed subclasses/pacts/bloodlines/domains/orders/whatever at level 1.

later just feels wrong.

level 3 is fine. No one is stopping you from declaring you patron at first level if you want to, it just takes you until third to get good at enough for distinct powers to come online

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Or you just look at it as sort of a "coming of age".
At lvl 1-2 you can feel and use the power but you do not know where it comes from. At lvl 3 you have understood enough to identify your patron/bloodline/... and can start to utilizing the specifics of it.

That doesn't make any sense at all and is anti-thematic. It's also in direct opposition to fantasy fiction on this topic.

The idea that Warlocks universally "haven't identified their patron" until L3 when the patron may well be a very specific and pleased-with-themselves Devil or the like is obviously laughable. It's also massively narrowing to the RP possibilities if you take that attitude, as every single patron has to be some sort of mysterious unidentified voice.

It's just Warlocks and Clerics, who should obviously have had an L1 choice, are forced to L3 because WotC decided to force every subclass to L3 with 2024. There's nothing more to it. It's a clumsy bit of symmetry-for-the-sake-of-symmetry design that will no doubt be abandoned with whatever the next edition (or whatever we're calling this) of D&D is.

level 3 is fine. No one is stopping you from declaring you patron at first level if you want to, it just takes you until third to get good at enough for distinct powers to come online

Mechanically it's fine, thematically it's completely rubbish. Your approach is a lot more reasonable than "U have no idea who ur patron is", but it's just needless standardization treading on thee theme of a class - it's hardly the only 2024 class trodden on by this.

 

[CreamCloud0]

That doesn't make any sense at all and is anti-thematic. It's also in direct opposition to fantasy fiction on this topic.

The idea that you haven't identified your patron when they may well be a very specific and pleased-with-themselves Devil or the like is obviously laughable.

It's just Warlocks and Clerics, who should obviously have had an L1 choice, are forced to L3 because WotC decided to force every subclass to L3 with 2024. There's nothing more to it. It's a clumsy bit of symmetry-for-the-sake-of-symmetry design that will no doubt be abandoned with whatever the next edition (or whatever we're calling this) of D&D is.

i find the idea that you've been recieving power from a very specific and pleased with themselves devil who very intentionally 'forgot to mention' or concealed their identity for this very reason to make alot of sense and is very thematic and in line with the fantasy fiction on this topic.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

i find the idea that you've been recieving power from a very specific and pleased with themselves devil who very intentionally concealed their identity for this very reason to make alot of sense and is very thematic and in line with the fantasy fiction on this topic.

Examples from fantasy fiction? Obviously happy to include comic books etc., as demonic pacts are more common there than pure written fiction.

Further, you're supporting my point:

It's also massively narrowing to the RP possibilities if you take that attitude, as every single patron has to be some sort of mysterious unidentified voice.

And quite strongly, by arguing in favour of the truly ludicrous position that literally no Warlock is allowed to know who their patron is until L3. There are sometimes "mysterious voice"-type power granters (more often these are angelic than demonic in fiction, I find), but they're a small minority of examples from fantasy fiction.

Vendral seems to conflating Sorcerers and Warlocks in the whole "you can feel and use your power" deal - Warlocks are granted power by signing up with a supernatural entity, it's not just something they already have, unlike Sorcerers. That obviously further supports my point re: thematic weakening/blurring.

 

[Corinnguard]

At lvl 1-2 you can feel and use the power but you do not know where it comes from.

Or you believe that it came from you, therefore you lead yourself to believe that you are a sorcerer. A player could use this as a backstory element for their character. "I thought I was a sorcerer until this being showed up and revealed that they were the true source of my power."

 

[Remathilis]

We really needed subclasses/pacts/bloodlines/domains/orders/whatever at level 1.

later just feels wrong.

Nothing stops you from declaring it earlier, just you have no unique mechanics for it until level 3.

And we really need to stop thinking of level 3 in AD&D terms. WotC has literally said levels 1 and 2 should be one session each. I know players who don't remember their character's names until four sessions in! You can wait two sessions before your patron gives your your goodies ...

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Or you believe that it came from you, therefore you lead yourself to believe that you are a sorcerer. A player could use this as a backstory element for their character. "I thought I was a sorcerer until this being showed up and revealed that they were the true source of my power."

The whole differentiating factor with Warlocks and Sorcerers is that a Warlock voluntarily signed up for this. I could see an unusual concept where as part of the sign-up process you asked to forget until some later date, but it would be highly unusual.

I don't think blurring those two concepts outside very specific circumstances is helpful.

 

[Corinnguard]

Patron Sign-Up Day at Warlock U.

 

[Remathilis]

Patron Sign-Up Day at Warlock U.

A place where I sign away my life for knowledge in the hopes of acquiring wealth and power does remind me of college...