D&D 5E (2014) What's the point of gold?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Thanks! Fantasy literature, heroic character, actual purchase, actual (and non-expendable) magic item!

Jack the Giant Slayer exchanges a cow for 3 magical beans- it isn't gold, but it IS commerce.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

"Elric is noted for using rare herbs and potions to maintain his energy when he is not under the influence of Stormbringer."

Another good example. Thank you again. But... is that really about adventuring, gaining gold, then spending that gold on magic items? I vaguely remember that he was the kind of person whose wealth was an assumed part of their background, and that how he paid for potions was no more an issue than how he paid for breakfast, lunch and dinner. You know those stories better than I do, so... is Elric a model for the 5E D&D character who's poring over a price list, and hoping that their next raid will yield enough gold for an armor upgrade? I mean, you've answered my late-in-the-thread sub-question, but I dunno if that also answers what gold *as adventure loot* is good for in 5E D&D, and whether gold is useless for those who have plate mail and can't find magic items for sale.

At certain points, yes, because he wanders off, leaving the throne to Yrkoon the Userper, thus abandoning the vast majority of his wealth. And even though he is still wealthy, sometimes he cannot pay for what he wants with what he has because the merchants simply cannot make change- some of the Melnibonean currency he carries is so valuable he could buy small towns with a single coin.

To that, add that he is aware of the negative influence of Stormbringer, and occasionally tries to do without it, reverting back to the potions and herbs.

"post 1900 is when magic as technology and economic commodity first appeared in literature." Yup. People didn't have the mental models, before roughly 1900. How often does it appear between 1900 and 1940, or 1945 and 1970? (You know the genre at least as well as I do, and I'm curious what you can tell me.)

"I didn't get a CPRG of any kind until 1984, the first Wizardry game. Yet I've personally run campaigns with magic shops of some kind or another since at least 1980 or so. And the concept didn't originate with me, either- I encountered it as a player in games run by others."

So where *does* it originate? How plausible is it, that those others got the idea from Izchak's Magic Lighting Shop (or some other CRPG source)? How plausible that they got it from "Bazzar of the Bizzare" (or any other published-on-paper story)? Or is there a third answer?

I doubt you'd find a single source.

I was familiar with Lieber before I picked up the dice in '77, so when the first DM told me of a magic shop, I was unsurprised that one existed.

Likewise, simply being well-read can point you in a number of directions. You can find medieval stories in which protagonists seek out witches or sorcerers with an eye towards buying potions or the services of a spellcaster to enchant someone or themselves.

Many of the oracles of the ancient world made their livings off of people paying for their prophesies.

Two people independently of each other came up with calculus; two people working separately were awarded the Nobel for their work on the creation silicon chip.

The point? Inspiration doesn't necessarily have a single source.

At this point, we're in your personal experience, totally in your wheelhouse, you're the one with the primary source; I am asking, not debating. (Well, you said that I was totally wrong, and I'm introducing a theory in which I might be not so wrong, but I'm pointing out a gap in what you've said, not challenging the substance.)

I would like to know why what people expect in D&D campaigns, is *so different* than the source material which Gygax credits as having inspired the D&D setting - and why 5E PCs see gold as "useless" in a way which would have *baffled* Conan, Grey Mouser, Frodo, and Elric, as well as Arthur, Robin Hood, Beowulf and Odysseus.

Their expectations may differ from yours, but not necessarily from Gygax, et alia's ideas and inspirations. You're looking at a very truncated list of what they said were their source material was. Gygax at the very least was very familiar with Moorcock's work- the alignment system was heavily influenced by it. And again, you can find people buying magic in all kinds of faerie tales and stories from all over the world.

The games at different tables just differed on which model they preferred- rare or common magic- and went from there. The more common the magic, the more obvious the magic economy.

 

[Remathilis]

So a player expressed his surprise that someone he fights besides with and who earns his living by fighting against monsters spends a large part of his wealth not on something which ensures his success and survival but on a house he might not even need (Did the PC had a family or other dependables who would justify a house of that size?)

THAT right there is why I'm so glad 5e removed magic item purchases from the default assumptions: Because why bother to buy something that integrates you into the campaign world (he now owns property in the largest city in the world) or has logical purpose in game (his home was a base of operations for the group for quite a while), when you can buy another +1 for your murderhobo?

For what its worth, the Cleric's primary method of aiding the group was via channel energy and buff healing. And the home served a place to live for one other PC (who paid rent!) and later the cleric's girlfriend (which was far more convenient than the temple dormitory for, well, you know).

You have to accept that unless you are playing a complete railroad game where you agreed to not kill a PC under any circumstance the PCs are in the end still mercenaries and soldiers who risk their live daily on some sort of battlefield. That ensuring their survival has a higher priority than luxury items is not a fault of the system but common sense.

I fail to see how these two connect. No solider in history has owned a home? No warrior has ever bought a luxury good?

This is the problem: when you make gp a trade between "effectiveness" and "personal taste", effectiveness wins most of the time. And that's fine, to an extent. But the notion that every gp not going toward making you effective is wasted in a horrible notion for the game and needs to be stamped out at every turn. I want PCs to who carouse, buy property, get expensive trophies made, buy jewelry, or freaking keep their objects du art without worrying if they aren't going to have a high enough AC or to hit. And I NEVER want to watch players sell off 6 +1 cloaks because they fought some mid-level NPCs ever again.

Eventually, yes. That is just the logical progression. Of course you do not have to set your campaign in a world which has reached Eberron level of magic use yet.

Why not? You might not have magic choo-choos and robots, but it certainly would start leaning that way. Slippery slope from easy to make +1 longswords to bombers on carpets of flying using necklaces of fireballs...

 

[Nebulous]

I fail to see how these two connect. No solider in history has owned a home? No warrior has ever bought a luxury good?

This is the problem: when you make gp a trade between "effectiveness" and "personal taste", effectiveness wins most of the time. And that's fine, to an extent. But the notion that every gp not going toward making you effective is wasted in a horrible notion for the game and needs to be stamped out at every turn. I want PCs to who carouse, buy property, get expensive trophies made, buy jewelry, or freaking keep their objects du art without worrying if they aren't going to have a high enough AC or to hit. And I NEVER want to watch players sell off 6 +1 cloaks because they fought some mid-level NPCs ever again.

I guess it comes down to a playstyle, neither is right nor wrong, but I for one do not want magic items so trivialized that they can be bought and sold for the next big upgrade. The roleplaying advantages and story hooks that coming with, for instance, buying real estate, would be much more interesting to me.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

why bother to buy something that integrates you into the campaign world (he now owns property in the largest city in the world) or has logical purpose in game (his home was a base of operations for the group for quite a while), when you can buy another +1 for your murderhobo?

Just because something is for sale doesn't mean it is easily acquired where you are. It doesn't mean you know where it is sold. It doesn't mean that the price is one you're willing to pay. It doesn't mean that the seller will sell to you.

I can tell you now, I live in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex, one of the top 10 urban population centers in the USA.

...and buying pickled turnips for my Mom- I like 'em too- requires I go to a certain kind of store. Buying my mother's preferred brand of pickled turnip requires I drive a half hour and cross county lines...without leaving "The city".

Going up the price scale a bit, I love guitars. I own more than 20. I have more than 300 luthiers and guitar manufacturers bookmarked on my iPad. To buy or even SEE most of them, I have to use the Internet because 99% of them are not available here, even most of the ones that are made and sold by multimillion-dollar international corporations.

 

[Derren]

THAT right there is why I'm so glad 5e removed magic item purchases from the default assumptions: Because why bother to buy something that integrates you into the campaign world (he now owns property in the largest city in the world) or has logical purpose in game (his home was a base of operations for the group for quite a while), when you can buy another +1 for your murderhobo?

For what its worth, the Cleric's primary method of aiding the group was via channel energy and buff healing. And the home served a place to live for one other PC (who paid rent!) and later the cleric's girlfriend (which was far more convenient than the temple dormitory for, well, you know).

His actions alone integrates him into the game world and the most logical purchase would be the one which ensures that you stay alive. And a girlfried hardly justifies an entire manor. The running costs for it alone would be quite high with all the staff needed to keep it running.

I fail to see how these two connect. No solider in history has owned a home? No warrior has ever bought a luxury good?

This is the problem: when you make gp a trade between "effectiveness" and "personal taste", effectiveness wins most of the time. And that's fine, to an extent. But the notion that every gp not going toward making you effective is wasted in a horrible notion for the game and needs to be stamped out at every turn. I want PCs to who carouse, buy property, get expensive trophies made, buy jewelry, or freaking keep their objects du art without worrying if they aren't going to have a high enough AC or to hit. And I NEVER want to watch players sell off 6 +1 cloaks because they fought some mid-level NPCs ever again.

You can be fairly sure that a professional soldier who has to pay for his own equipment purchased good weapons and armor first and luxuries second, unless he had a fatalistic attitude and wanted to "have as much fun as possible before he died". Don't forget that at 4th level we are not talking about some money, but about the majority of the PCs wealth. Not spending that on staying alive in the fights you regularly get in and instead buy and repair a manor which obviously is much too large than what the PC really needs is a strange choice.

Why not? You might not have magic choo-choos and robots, but it certainly would start leaning that way. Slippery slope from easy to make +1 longswords to bombers on carpets of flying using necklaces of fireballs...

As I said that is the logical progression the same way knights gave way to pike&shot.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I can understand why some want fixed prices for magic items, but I like the 5e handles magic item pricing. Overall, I think it's a better approach. In a post-apocalyptic tribal warfare setting, a magic sword is likely to be more valuable than a ring of mind shielding, whereas in a highly politicized setting where the use of detect thoughts is commonplace, the opposite is likely to be true. Items have a cost range based on their rarity, but the DM is free to decide how valuable a particular item is given the scenario. There are undoubtedly some items that have a poorly ranked rarity (Ioun Stone of Strength) but over/undervalued items have existed in every edition.

I also like that magic items are not for sale by default. In 3rd and 4th, we tended to save our gold for magic items. In my current campaign, I've had players "wasting" gold on booze and charity, and I love it. I really feel that it brings something great back to the game that's been missing since my 2e days. Granted, they also spend gold on adventuring gear such as healing potions and poison, but they have plenty to spare for both. Aside from one group that can sell them a limited selection of tech-based magic items (if the PCs ever get on the group's good side) I don't have magic shops. I've allowed players to sell magic items, and when the fighter was looking to trade his ring of mind shielding for something more useful, I had an influential merchant broker a deal (for a fee) that got him a circlet of blasting. The player didn't get to choose; I rolled for what was available. If he wasn't happy with the offering, the merchant could have kept looking, but there were no guarantees. And given that (unbeknownst to the PCs) the trade was with one of the elven king's political rivals, there may be unexpected consequences down the line.

Something I was thinking about while reading this thread is that magic items shops (if they existed at all) would likely be regulated in many settings. After all, while the local ruler might not care if the local farmboy-done-good acquires a sword +1, he might feel more strongly about a wand of fireballs that could be turned against his army, and he'd almost certainly ban the sale of a ring of invisibility that could be used as part of his own assassination. So if a market for magic items exists at all, it may well be a black market.

Another thing is the assumption that since wizards exist, they must be cranking out magic items all the time. While that certainly true of Eberron with its artificers, I don't think it can be assumed for other settings. I think it's safe to say that there's a vast difference between a hedge mage who can brew simple potions of healing or love, and a true wizard capable of creating a vorpal sword. While the former may largely make his living crafting magic items, what he's capable of is likely quite limited. On the other hand, a wizard whose amassed significant power is likely more interested in unlocking further secrets of the arcane arts than spending all his time mass-producing magical swords for the local murder-hobos. If he needs a quick gold piece, it's probably easier for him to sell his services as a spellcaster to solve a quick problem than to spend weeks or months investing his own gold and time into the creation of a magic sword. If he has a favored lieutenant, the wizard might be inclined to take the time to create an item which will help his henchman serve his needs even better, but he's not necessarily going to do the same for every dirty vagabond that shows up on his doorstep with a pile of gold.

Finally, even if non-adventurers have magic items, that doesn't necessarily constitute an economy. In most settings (aside from perhaps Eberron), not everyone has magic items. It's entirely possible (even likely, IMO) that these items would be a symbol of prestige among the nobility; heirlooms passed down from one generation to another. While it's possible that a family in dire financial straits would stoop to selling off their heirloom, the likelihood is that they'd sell it to another noble family, rather than some rich mercenary. Its bad enough to see your heirloom in the hands of another house without it being paraded about in the hands of a simple commoner.

Those are my thoughts on the topic, anyway.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Footnote to my last post: my grocery store ran out of bread yesterday. BREAD! And not just the commercial stuff- their bakery was down to a half dozen loaves and some rolls.

In the heart of a thriving metropolis.

 

[CapnZapp]

Balanced for whom? There is no universal, one size fits all point of balance for this stuff. What would seem sensible to some groups would be way off kilter for others. Leaving decisions like these to individual groups was the best decision made for this game. If you can't be responsible for the balance and content of your own fantasy games of the imagination then perhaps sticking to board games is a better fit.

I find your post incredibly uncivil.

Stop deriding other people's wishes. Telling people to stick to board games can be incredibly offensive.

Providing a balanced set of rules to price magic items is not trivial. Your suggestion to leave it to individual groups is incredibly dismissive of a valid concern.

Even your final argument falls flat. Just because you can't please everybody you shouldn't even try? Sheesh... Just because there's no universally accepted price level doesn't mean many many groups would find any set of pricing guidelines incredibly useful.

 

[CapnZapp]

The only way to do this is to make all items give some form of bonus, or have none of them give a bonus. Even then, its a tall order.

Sorry what?

Let's not make this more difficult that it already is.

We're talking about the magic items in the DMG. No changes.