D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[Riley37]

"If Izchak's Magic Lighting Store, ten levels below the surface, selling wish-granting magic lanterns for around 100 GP, makes more sense to you than the forging of Anduril in LOTR..."

Why 10 levels below the surface? What makes sense is that you have guilds in large cities where you can order magic items to be crafted if you have the required social standing and which likely also have the more general ones in stock.

Because in my many games of NetHack, I've never seen Izchak's Magical Lighting Store appear any earlier than, I think, the 5th level of the Dwarven Mines, and the Dwarven Mines always start at level 2-4 of the Dungeons of Doom. You were saying that magic item stores in CRPGs make more sense to you than magic item stores in "the stories". Well, that's how magic item stores work in one of the CRPGs closest to early (1980s) D&D.

I love NetHack and its mind-hurting internal logic, but I personally will never open a magic lighting shop ten levels under the surface, and if I have magic lanterns which yield wishes when blessed, I won't sell them for 100 GP. (Even if I trust the buyer not to wish for a Wand of Death and then use it on me, avoiding payment.)

On another hand, if I had the shards of Narsil, I would absolutely take them to Rivendell to have them reforged into Anduril. That makes more sense than Nethack... to me. If it makes less sense than Nethack to you, then (shrug) to each their own.

 

[Derren]

Because in my many games of NetHack

What has NetHack to do with anything?

On another hand, if I had the shards of Narsil, I would absolutely take them to Rivendell to have them reforged into Anduril. That makes more sense than Nethack... to me. If it makes less sense than Nethack to you, then (shrug) to each their own.

What would have made sense is that in Rivendell the smith creating all those swords would then give them to wizards to have them enchanted and that they still have large stores of magical weapons from previous conflicts.

 

[Riley37]

Arabian Nights. Prince Husain travels to Bisnagar and buys a magic carpet.

Thanks! Fantasy literature, heroic character, actual purchase, actual (and non-expendable) magic item!

 

[Riley37]

What has NetHack to do with anything?

It has to do with your assertion, about what does and doesn't make sense, in response to my theory that Thaum-Marts in D&D are more inspired by Thaum-Marts in CRPGs than by published-on-paper literature. Is there a misunderstanding?

"What would have made sense is that in Rivendell the smith creating all those swords would then give them to wizards to have them enchanted and that they still have large stores of magical weapons from previous conflicts."

Uh... Rivendell is in Middle-Earth. In that setting, there are a handful of Istari on Middle-Earth, and I don't see any evidence that any of them would and could have enchanted any ordinary sword into something like Anduril.

I find it plausible that while smiths *starting with shards of Narsil* were using that material to make Anduril, Gandalf may well have worked some enchantment *as part of the forging process*, seeing as he was there at the time. The All-Creator sent Gandalf to Middle-Earth for certain purposes; zapping a pile of Ginsus, one by one, into a pile of +1 Ginsus, was not among those purposes. Istari are a fundamentally different concept of what a "wizard" is, than a D&D wizard (or a Vance wizard, or a wizard of Earthsea). Also, fundamentally different concept of hand-crafting vs. mass-producing. JRRT apparently had an anti-industrial bias.

Your idea might be what makes sense in, say, Phlan. But not in Rivendell.

 

[Nebulous]

It got to the point in my Pathfinder game that a PC interested in fixing up a broken manor home (about 2k in repairs) was chastised by another player for wasting gold on that when he could buy a +1 weapon with it.

That kind of thinking is why I hate craft/shop anything magical rules.

That absolutely ruins it for me, and I'm very glad 5e does not have anything like that by default.

 

[Derren]

Uh... Rivendell is in Middle-Earth. In that setting, there are a handful of Istari on Middle-Earth, and I don't see any evidence that any of them would and could have enchanted any ordinary sword into something like Anduril.

And yet Sting and many other elven made magical items existed and they had to come from somewhere.
"Stories" get away with having magical item plopping up left and right while continuing the "magic is super rare" mantra, without addressing this obvious incoherency. PnPs on the other hand need to address this and can't simply gloss over it. And the usual "Leftovers from an ancient empire" explanation gets stale very fast, especially as the history of the world doesn't support it or assumes 0 innovation over centuries and when magic is encountered everywhere in the form of PCs, NPCs and monsters.

 

[Derren]

That absolutely ruins it for me, and I'm very glad 5e does not have anything like that by default.

And what exactly is the problem with a comerade in arms whos survival depends on his combat power and on that of his companions expresses concerns over him rather spending a (I assume) large part of his ressources on a house which he/they might not even need, use or being even be allowed to keep?

 

[Nebulous]

And what exactly is the problem with a comerade in arms whos survival depends on his combat power and on that of his companions expresses concerns over him rather spending a (I assume) large part of his ressources on a house which he/they might not even need, use or being even be allowed to keep?

It's not a problem - if they need/want a magic sword I'll give them one, they don't need to go the magic grocery store and can spend their money on more interesting story enhancing things. It's the style of game that we enjoy. Now that being said, someone could argue that the house is a waste of money that could potentially purchase healing potions or gems or rare spell components, and that would be a viable argument. Regardless, spending that kind of money would be a group decision, not the whim of an individual.

 

[delericho]

And yet Sting and many other elven made magical items existed and they had to come from somewhere.

As Riley37 noted, Tolkien had a very strong anti-industrial viewpoint. As I understand it, most of the 'magic' swords in that setting were actually just mundane swords that were used in war, and thus became magical by virtue of the heroic deeds in which they were used.

Plus, of course, Tolkien's setting did have magic item creation, but it required the crafter to pour a certain amount of himself into his work, which meant it was not something done lightly. That model does explain why there might be few, but very powerful, items in the setting.

Edit: None of which means that D&D must, or should, do things that way - as you note, what "stories" do is not necessarily a guide as to what's good for games.

 

[The M'hael]

Sting and many of the "Magic" Elvish Swords were forged by the Noldor, the great elf smiths. Some others were forged by their ancestors, who also forged the rings of power. They were very much magical, except in the Silmarilion, EVERY Noldo elf hero had a magic sword! Feanor himself forged the Silmarils, legendary magic items, and they were stolen and taken many times, and were great "Plot Hooks" for other heroes. There were very few Istarii, and they had specific purposes, which were not to make tons of magic swords, but Joe the Noldo Smith ONLY made magic swords. This is less about Buying magic weapons then it is about making them, But the Noldo sold/gave their magic swords to the Vanyar and the Teleri, the other races of High elves. So it was sort of an economy.