D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[Dannyalcatraz]

So how did that become part of D&D's setting? Early D&D magic was based mainly on Vance's "Dying Earth", in which magic isn't widespread. The first DMG described weaving flying carpets and assembling Appurati of Kwalish as difficult, dangerous, expensive, non-routine tasks. There's a wide, wide variety of magic items, but the high-status giants in G1 through G3 own at most one or two each, and the rank-and-file giants own none; they aren't at "two cars in every garage" levels of mass production. When did that aspect of D&D change?

(emphasis mine)

Well, there's your problem!

While Vance's Dying Earth stories were one clear and obvious source of magic in early D&D, I would hesitate to call it the "main" source. D&D was a hodge-podge. Gygax & crew CLEARLY followed the adage about stealing from the best.

Flying Carpets come to us form the Middle Eastern myth traditions. Magic rings, hats and cloaks of all kinds have definite inspiration points or outright lifts in Western, Nordic and Slavic European fairy tales such as those found in the Grimm's collection and other stories.

There are even items- and spells- inspired by The Bible.

 

[Paraxis]

Personally I like both, buying magic items and finding them. I think literature and history (charlatans obviously in our world) the first DM or game designer to include the concept of a magic item shops into a D&D game, then that inspired computer roleplaying games to do the same, then they feed of each other until you got magic item vendors like in Diablo and magic item purchasing in 3rd edition, both of which are way over the top IMO, but like I said I still enjoy both.

I put a slightly magical +1 weapon in a shop for dirt cheap prices because the vendor didn't know it was magic only to give the characters the ability to injure a magical monster later that night sure, I also made that item grow in power with the character as they unlocked it's secrets. One of the most powerful magic items in that campaign and it was sold for something like 10 gp.

But I think most of the time it is best to keep magic items as found treasure or awarded prizes because those things and the stories behind them make it more magical. Imagine 3 paladins sitting around a camp the eve before a major battle against a demon lord, telling war stories. These guys have the only 3 known holy avengers on the world, the first tells of an epic quest to an ancient den of evil and fighting hordes of evil with his companions only to discover the remains of one of his ancestors still clutching this long thought lost blade, the next tells of how held back a tide of demons at the gates to the city so that time could be bought for the civilians and how when he thought all was lost an angel came to him healed his wounds and placed the holy avenger in his hands, the last guy tells the story of how he killed a beholder took his piles of coins headed into the city and bought his holy avenger from Bob the fence.

So while I would like individual prices or even breaking the items down on a 1-20 scale instead of a 1-5 scale so I can better judge the value and put them into my campaign, I don't want the rules to tell me you can purchase multiple robes of the arch magi down the street in any big town like in 3rd edition.

 

[Derren]

the last guy tells the story of how he killed a beholder took his piles of coins headed into the city and bought his holy avenger from Bob the fence.

And what is the problem with that? Are the other 2 Holy Avengers somehow better because they came from an armory on the planes or sat rotting in a cave for years?
And you forget that at some point they too were freshly forged at some point without any glorious story tied to them.

 

[Staffan]

I could be *wrong* that 2E DMG Thaum-Mart is mostly based on Izchak's Magic Lighting Store and Asidonhopo's General Store, but I don't see how a theory of causation is "uncalled for" - it's accurate or it's false, that's all. What am I missing?

AFAIK, 2e is the edition most hostile to the concept of buying and selling magic items. 1e at least had gp prices listed for magic items, even if it admonished against making them available for purchase. But 2e did not, it only listed XP values, and the DMG went to some lengths in order to tell you what a bad idea a magic shop was.

 

[Paraxis]

And what is the problem with that? Are the other 2 Holy Avengers somehow better because they came from an armory on the planes or sat rotting in a cave for years?
And you forget that at some point they too were freshly forged at some point without any glorious story tied to them.

The problem with that is how special the sword feels to the character and the player. Different people different kinds of fun, if something is supposed to feel special and magical I want it to have a cooler backstory than my character picked it out from the shelf among the other magic weapons.

Do I always get that in D&D no, as a DM do I always provide that ..still no. Sometimes magic item shops make sense to me and what is in them sometimes they do not. I do want more detailed tools to determine that for my games than what 5e provides so far.

Magic varies from world to world, campaign to campaign, sometimes session to session within a campaign. Some worlds the idea of freshly forged powerful items just doesn't exist not forged by mortals at least.

 

[Paraxis]

AFAIK, 2e is the edition most hostile to the concept of buying and selling magic items. 1e at least had gp prices listed for magic items, even if it admonished against making them available for purchase. But 2e did not, it only listed XP values, and the DMG went to some lengths in order to tell you what a bad idea a magic shop was.

That was true during the early days of 2e, than books like the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magic_Encyclopedia and the series http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedia_Magica
came out.

So 1989-1991 they didn't have magic item prices, then in 1992 the flood gates opened. Yes there was wording about how the cost listed was the suggested price the characters would get for selling the item, and that if the DM wanted to say magic was more rare to multiple the values by X amount, all very good advice, but the second you have that number the expectation is someone somewhere can purchase a +5 warhammer for 18,000 gp so why not me?

Now I don't like the idea that players sometimes assume they should be able to find and purchase anything, I believe all items should have a listed value so that the DM can adjudicate for themselves and have a frame of reference.

 

[Riley37]

In the story, Grey Mouser enters the fake Bazaar like a mouse enters a cheese-baited trap. As canny and arcane-savvy as he is, he doesn't hesitate- he goes into the store expecting to be able to buy wondrous things. While the situation may be rare, it is not so alien to him that he instinctively reacts with suspicion.

Now, from that point, any subsequent reader- even one turned author, game designer or GM- can then ask, "But what if the Bazaar HAD been selling legitimate magic items?" and spin a tale using that conceit.

Ah, now you're answering my question! Whether that "what if" could have happened in Lahkmar, whether the Mouser was acting rationally or otherwise, "what if" is still a basic story seed in SF&F. Thank you, sir.

"Elric is noted for using rare herbs and potions to maintain his energy when he is not under the influence of Stormbringer."

Another good example. Thank you again. But... is that really about adventuring, gaining gold, then spending that gold on magic items? I vaguely remember that he was the kind of person whose wealth was an assumed part of their background, and that how he paid for potions was no more an issue than how he paid for breakfast, lunch and dinner. You know those stories better than I do, so... is Elric a model for the 5E D&D character who's poring over a price list, and hoping that their next raid will yield enough gold for an armor upgrade? I mean, you've answered my late-in-the-thread sub-question, but I dunno if that also answers what gold *as adventure loot* is good for in 5E D&D, and whether gold is useless for those who have plate mail and can't find magic items for sale.

"post 1900 is when magic as technology and economic commodity first appeared in literature." Yup. People didn't have the mental models, before roughly 1900. How often does it appear between 1900 and 1940, or 1945 and 1970? (You know the genre at least as well as I do, and I'm curious what you can tell me.)

"I didn't get a CPRG of any kind until 1984, the first Wizardry game. Yet I've personally run campaigns with magic shops of some kind or another since at least 1980 or so. And the concept didn't originate with me, either- I encountered it as a player in games run by others."

So where *does* it originate? How plausible is it, that those others got the idea from Izchak's Magic Lighting Shop (or some other CRPG source)? How plausible that they got it from "Bazzar of the Bizzare" (or any other published-on-paper story)? Or is there a third answer?

At this point, we're in your personal experience, totally in your wheelhouse, you're the one with the primary source; I am asking, not debating. (Well, you said that I was totally wrong, and I'm introducing a theory in which I might be not so wrong, but I'm pointing out a gap in what you've said, not challenging the substance.)

I would like to know why what people expect in D&D campaigns, is *so different* than the source material which Gygax credits as having inspired the D&D setting - and why 5E PCs see gold as "useless" in a way which would have *baffled* Conan, Grey Mouser, Frodo, and Elric, as well as Arthur, Robin Hood, Beowulf and Odysseus.

 

[Derren]

and why 5E PCs see gold as "useless" in a way which would have *baffled* Conan, Grey Mouser, Frodo, and Elric, as well as Arthur, Robin Hood, Beowulf and Odysseus.

Would it really have baffled them? Except for Conan, when did anyone of those iconic heroes ever need gold? They were handed everything they need to succeed in their story, but as it was noted a story and a RPG are very different things.

 

[Paraxis]

At this point, we're in your personal experience, totally in your wheelhouse, you're the one with the primary source; I am asking, not debating. (Well, you said that I was totally wrong, and I'm introducing a theory in which I might be not so wrong, but I'm pointing out a gap in what you've said, not challenging the substance.)

I would like to know why what people expect in D&D campaigns, is *so different* than the source material which Gygax credits as having inspired the D&D setting - and why 5E PCs see gold as "useless" in a way which would have *baffled* Conan, Grey Mouser, Frodo, and Elric, as well as Arthur, Robin Hood, Beowulf and Odysseus.

I would say it comes from the past 20-25 years of D&D and computer roleplaying games. If you were born in 1985 or later I imagine the concept of magic item shops is the default in fantasy games. Myself being born in 1975 can easily imagine worlds where either assumption is the default.

So in literature and movie mediums are magic item shops normal? I would say not, do they exist sure. In roleplaying games (both tabletop and computer) are magic item shops normal? I would say yes they are, do they not exist in some settings sure.

Are roleplaying games trying to recreate stories from literature anymore, or are they trying to be roleplaying games?

 

[Celtavian]

I like that base D&D doesn't have the option to buy magic items. It's far easier to add magic items for sale if you prefer to take them away from a game balanced with them in mind. It's obvious they intended magic items to be a big part of the game as in past editions. It seems like this edition was built so the base didn't require feats, magic items, or many options. You can add on to it as you like. It's very easy to do so.