D&D 5E (2014) What's the point of gold?

[CapnZapp]

WHERE THE F$%@! did you get the idea that anyone ever buys magic items in heroic fantasy stories?

Where the darn did you get the idea that D&D was limited to Achilles or Arthur stories?

 

[Derren]

I'm kinda disappointed that no one has, so far, seriously answered any of the questions I've raised.

What loot did Achilles and Odysseus gain?
What magic items did they buy?

What loot did King Arthur gain?
What magic items did he buy?

Do you even recognize those names?
Are you aware of the genre of stories, "heroic fantasy"?
Is there now, or was there ever, any connection between D&D, and heroic fantasy?
WHERE THE F$%@! did you get the idea that anyone ever buys magic items in heroic fantasy stories?

When did Arthur and Achilles ever spend gold?

 

[Riley37]

Pharaxis provided you with 2 links that answer your question with at least a few dozen examples in Western literature alone.

Since you didn't read them, I will skip over the details somewhat and note that the examples provided almost all date from fantasy or pulp literature written post 1900.

Half-true, and uncivil in the assumption. Pharaxis provided excellent links, in an excellent post, which arrived while I was writing my immediately-previous; I only saw his post after I had sent mine. As soon as Pharaxis's post appeared before me, I read it, and followed the links and read the linked pages.

(There may be more excellent contributions being posted as I write this. Gimme more than an hour to catch up, please, before you judge this one as ignoring those others?)

"The Bazzar of the Bizzare" is a heroic fantasy story, in which heroic adventurers don't spend loot to buy any (usable, real) magic items. Have you read it?

And it's just about the only heroic fantasy story on the list which pre-dates the first editions of D&D. "The Goblin Market" is not heroic fantasy - that is, there are no heroic adventurer characters in the poem - and it doesn't involve anyone spending piles of loot, nor buying usable magic items such as swords or scrolls.

Thaum-Mart in 3E, 4E and 5E is based on shops in NetHack, Legend of Zelda, and Elder Scrolls, more than on anything written on paper before 1971. Diagon Alley, and so forth, were written *after* D&D, and subsequent TRPGs and CRPGs, had developed Thaum-Mart.

"Why the difference between pre-1900 epic literature and post? Or in FRPGs? In general, the writers had radically different assumptions about the origins and ubiquity of magic items."

That's an interesting idea. Yes, the Industrial Revolution changed how people thought about production of tools. Tolkien and similar writers, however, were writing in settings which were intentionally non-industrial. In JRRT's case, pointedly non-industrial, except where Saruman was involved, and for all Saruman's smoke and noise, he never replicated the palantir. (Which is significant: if he COULD have reverse-engineered and mass-produced them, then he might not have minded Grima throwing palantirs at Gandalf.) There aren't any Sword +1 factories in Lahkmar, nor in Conan's setting, nor in Earthsea, nor in "Three Hearts and Three Lions", nor in "Nine Princes in Amber". Cortana is a unique item; it's not the only magic sword in the world, it presumably co-exists with Excalibur, Durandal and Gram, but it's handcrafted, not factory-produced. So is Grayswandir - which isn't from a divine source, unless you consider Dworkin divine.

In NetHack, a Lawful adventurer can find Excalibur in a fountain, and any of the named swords can be given when one sacrifices at an altar. But otherwise, CRPG adventurers tend to find magic items as if they were mass-produced, rather than any of the story-intensive unique-named-item ways such as pulled from a tree or a stone, given by the Jedi hermit who's been watching over you since your birth, reforged at Rivendell, etc. So I don't think it's the Industrial Revolution; it's the Information Age. It's CRPGs.

Another link to TVTropes:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShopliftAndDie
All the examples are from CRPGs (or similar computer games). Thaum-Mart *without* ShopliftAndDie, in murder-hobo TRPG or CRPG, is basically "here's a free pile of magic items".

Running your TRPG as an emulation of a CRPG isn't necessarily bad. If you'd like to play a hack&slash, all the time or for occasional variety, then you could do a passable TRPG of Nethack's Dungeons of Doom, and the DM might have fun role-playing the Nemesis Quest characters.

I'm just saying, if it's your fundamental assumption that gold coin loot is all about buying magic items, then you're turning your back on the whole genre of pre-D&D heroic fantasy, to emulate CRPGs, and I'd rather you do so as a conscious decision, aware of some alternatives, doing whatever's most fun for you.

 

[Riley37]

I asked: "WHERE THE F$%@! did you get the idea that anyone ever buys magic items in heroic fantasy stories?"

Where the darn did you get the idea that D&D was limited to Achilles or Arthur stories?

If you answer my question, Cap, then I will happily answer yours. (No, it's not the letter A.)

 

[Derren]

That's an interesting idea. Yes, the Industrial Revolution changed how people thought about production of tools. Tolkien and similar writers, however, were writing in settings which were intentionally non-industrial. In JRRT's case, pointedly non-industrial, except where Saruman was involved, and for all Saruman's smoke and noise, he never replicated the palantir. (Which is significant: if he COULD have reverse-engineered and mass-produced them, then he might not have minded Grima throwing palantirs at Gandalf.) There aren't any Sword +1 factories in Lahkmar, nor in Conan's setting, nor in Earthsea, nor in "Three Hearts and Three Lions", nor in "Nine Princes in Amber". Cortana is a unique item; it's not the only magic sword in the world, it presumably co-exists with Excalibur, Durandal and Gram, but it's handcrafted, not factory-produced. So is Grayswandir - which isn't from a divine source, unless you consider Dworkin divine.

Which makes only sense if magic is extremly rare, something which does not apply to D&D. There magic is widespread and people know how to make magic items. That, and the usefulness of magic items, means there will be an industry and a market for it.

You comparisation with CRPGs is entirely uncalled for. Actually the stories are the ones which do not make much sense, but people are more willing to overlook those things in passive mediums, like books, than in active ones like TRPGs.

 

[CapnZapp]

I asked: "WHERE THE F$%@! did you get the idea that anyone ever buys magic items in heroic fantasy stories?"



If you answer my question, Cap, then I will happily answer yours. (No, it's not the letter A.)

I chose to ignore your questions to instead give a counter-question since I believe you aren't seriously open to discussion.

As far as I can see, you willfully choose to ignore that D&D is a game and not a story, and how this opens up the shared experience to elements of interaction (such as how players of games find it fun to be able to select their own magical items instead of merely accepting the ones provided to them by the story).

I honestly don't think you and I have anything to discuss here.

Regards,
Zapp

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The Bazzar of the Bizzare" is a heroic fantasy story, in which heroic adventurers don't spend loot to buy any (usable, real) magic items. Have you read it?

I've read every Fritz Lieber story that has been commercially released.

Your question was:

WHERE THE F$%@! did you get the idea that anyone ever buys magic items in heroic fantasy stories?

In the story, Grey Mouser enters the fake Bazaar like a mouse enters a cheese-baited trap. As canny and arcane-savvy as he is, he doesn't hesitate- he goes into the store expecting to be able to buy wondrous things. While the situation may be rare, it is not so alien to him that he instinctively reacts with suspicion.

Now, from that point, any subsequent reader- even one turned author, game designer or GM- can then ask, "But what if the Bazaar HAD been selling legitimate magic items?" and spin a tale using that conceit. Now, we may disagree what her the examples provided are proof thereof, but I think we can agree that the list is probably not exhaustive.

Besides, it isn't as if Fritz made up the concept himself- he was, in all likelihood, inspired by the bustling real-world trade in potions, saintly relics, talismans, ancient artifacts of lost civilizations and the like that has existed since not long after humans started making them.

So I repeat, conceptual identity isn't necessary if conceptual inspiration is sufficient.

But let's go further. Elric is noted for using rare herbs and potions to maintain his energy when he is not under the influence of Stormbringer. This means he's either:

1) buying magical herbs & potions
2) buying ingredients for those and making them himself.

Or paying for underlings to acquiring 1 or 2. Regardless of which way, he's directly or indirectly spending money on magic.

Yes, the Industrial Revolution changed how people thought about production of tools. Tolkien and similar writers, however, were writing in settings which were intentionally non-industrial.

JRRT's writing style was intentionally mirroring the structure of the epic poetry- long genealogies, magic was rare, created by very few beings.

REH also intentionally constructed a world mirroring the epics of the past, with rare magic.

LeGuin's Earthsea stories focus mostly on spellcasters, not users of magic items. We have no idea what kind of magc items actually exist in the setting, if any, because they aren't important.

None of whom matter in this case anyway, since the assertion wasn't whether ALL writers post 1900 did so, the assertion was that post 1900 is when magic as technology and economic commodity first appeared in literature.

So I don't think it's the Industrial Revolution; it's the Information Age. It's CRPGs.

Nooooooope. Not even: I didn't get a CPRG of any kind until 1984, the first Wizardry game.*

Yet I've personally run campaigns with magic shops of some kind or another since at least 1980 or so. And the concept didn't originate with me, either- I encountered it as a player in games run by others.

I'm just saying, if it's your fundamental assumption that gold coin loot is all about buying magic items, then you're turning your back on the whole genre of pre-D&D heroic fantasy, to emulate CRPGs, and I'd rather you do so as a conscious decision, aware of some alternatives, doing whatever's most fun for you.

Again, you're way off the mark.

My fundamental assumption is that the standard rules of economics apply to all things.** The market may be small, or it may be large. There may be many items or few.

Regardless, I can still draw a supply and demand curve for magic items.




* FWIW, my last one was SSI's Pool of Radiance @1992 or so. I simply don't play CRPGs.

** the only exceptions known to man are giffen goods, and magic items do not qualify as such.

 

[Riley37]

Which makes only sense if magic is extremly rare, something which does not apply to D&D. There magic is widespread and people know how to make magic items. That, and the usefulness of magic items, means there will be an industry and a market for it.

You comparisation with CRPGs is entirely uncalled for. Actually the stories are the ones which do not make much sense, but people are more willing to overlook those things in passive mediums, like books, than in active ones like TRPGs.

"magic is widespread and people know how to make magic items" is, indeed, a substantial difference between D&D 2E-5E, and pulp heroic fantasy (and its myth predecessors).

So how did that become part of D&D's setting? Early D&D magic was based mainly on Vance's "Dying Earth", in which magic isn't widespread. The first DMG described weaving flying carpets and assembling Appurati of Kwalish as difficult, dangerous, expensive, non-routine tasks. There's a wide, wide variety of magic items, but the high-status giants in G1 through G3 own at most one or two each, and the rank-and-file giants own none; they aren't at "two cars in every garage" levels of mass production. When did that aspect of D&D change?

I'm saying that it's not a *comparison* with CRPGs, but a *causal relationship*. From 1971 to the present, D&D has both inspired CRPGs, and been influenced by them. I could be *wrong* that 2E DMG Thaum-Mart is mostly based on Izchak's Magic Lighting Store and Asidonhopo's General Store, but I don't see how a theory of causation is "uncalled for" - it's accurate or it's false, that's all. What am I missing?

If Izchak's Magic Lighting Store, ten levels below the surface, selling wish-granting magic lanterns for around 100 GP, makes more sense to you than the forging of Anduril in LOTR, then... then we have different tastes. De gustibus nil est disputandem.

 

[delericho]

WHERE THE F$%@! did you get the idea that anyone ever buys magic items in heroic fantasy stories?

Arabian Nights. Prince Husain travels to Bisnagar and buys a magic carpet.

 

[Derren]

So how did that become part of D&D's setting?

It has always been part of D&D as wizards were an unrestricted class and were also ofen encountered as enemies and also as magic items were encountered over and over again, something which would require a large industry.

If Izchak's Magic Lighting Store, ten levels below the surface, selling wish-granting magic lanterns for around 100 GP, makes more sense to you than the forging of Anduril in LOTR, then... then we have different tastes. De gustibus nil est disputandem.

Why 10 levels below the surface? What makes sense is that you have guilds in large cities where you can order magic items to be crafted if you have the required social standing and which likely also have the more general ones in stock.