D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[Paraxis]

WHERE THE F$%@! did you get the idea that anyone ever buys magic items in heroic fantasy stories?

The main place is well you know D&D itself, it's fiction, it's published adventures.
"I learned it by watching you dad!"

But here is two popular tropes that are built around magic item shops and a break down of some good examples.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLittleShopThatWasntThereYesterday

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BazaarOfTheBizarre

It all depends on the setting and the story.

 

[Riley37]

To be fair, in the heroic fantasy stories it's pretty much essential that the hero finds magic that they can use...

Thank you, Kikuras!

Absolutely. Finds, as with Sigmund drawing Gram from the tree; or takes, as in Beowulf grabbing the sword in the den of Grendel's mother; inherits, as in Luke Skywalker's first lightsaber; or makes, as when Luke builds his own lightsaber, or when Taran Wanderer forges his own sword, or Aragorn has Narsil reforged into Anduril.

The Magic Items aisle of Wal-Mart is not part of any of those stories.

Achilles went "on strike" against Meneleus and Agamemnon specifically over distribution of loot. "Sing, Muse, the anger of Achilles" leads directly into that dispute. There are many passages in the Iliad about what loot was given as prizes, taken from fallen foes, swapped on the battlefield, offered as restitution. Loot is a big deal. It is not spent to buy magic items. Achilles does not complain about having gold and no use for it. He sulks in his tent - leading to the death of dozens of Achaeans including his best friend - over loot, which *is not used for shopping*.

Odysseus walked away from Troy with some decent loot, lost it all along the way, then was given gold tripods and similar items by the Phaiakians, and the first thing he does when he returns to Ithaka, is *stash that loot* (in a grotto). There *is* a "receipt as Appendix A" in book 13 of the Oddysey. But why does he care about that loot? I can tell you this much: *not* because he's gonna spend it on magic items.

In those stories, *loot is a big deal*, and *not because you buy magic items with it*.

So, my question stands: where did anyone get the idea that heroes use loot to buy magic items?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So, my question stands: where did anyone get the idea that heroes use loot to buy magic items?

Pharaxis provided you with 2 links that answer your question with at least a few dozen examples in Western literature alone.

Since you didn't read them, I will skip over the details somewhat and note that the examples provided almost all date from fantasy or pulp literature written post 1900.

One you SHOULD know is no less iconic than some of the fiction mentioned- Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd & Grey Mouser stories include The Bazzar of the Bizzare, from which Dragon Magazine got the name for its section on "kewl" magic loot.

Why the difference between pre-1900 epic literature and post? Or in FRPGs? In general, the writers had radically different assumptions about the origins and ubiquity of magic items.

The epic writers generally assumed that magic items- major ones, at least- were given from divine or otherworldly sources, not made by mere mortals. In many cases, mortals who strove to create their own magic artifacts were struck down by the gods for their presumptions and hubris. Besides, nonmagical items of that level of workmanship would have been rare anyway.

Post-1900 writers lived in the Industrial Age or post-Industrial ages. They saw the way the mind of man could be creative on a massive, repeatable scale. And THEIR assumption was that magic was like technology: once you have any understanding of it, you can deepen, broaden and use that knowledge to make more. IOW, man can make magic items similar to those created by divine or otherworldly beings. This is Man as the Semi-divine Creator.

The other key difference: a broader dissemination of the basics of the laws of Economics. After the existence of Wealth of Nations, more people understood that, once a thing exists, a market for it will exist for it as well.

 

[Psikerlord#]

people asked me what the point of gold is?

To earn more than your wife or partner can spend.

 

[Kikuras]

Thank you, Kikuras!

Absolutely. Finds, as with Sigmund drawing Gram from the tree; or takes, as in Beowulf grabbing the sword in the den of Grendel's mother; inherits, as in Luke Skywalker's first lightsaber; or makes, as when Luke builds his own lightsaber, or when Taran Wanderer forges his own sword, or Aragorn has Narsil reforged into Anduril.

The Magic Items aisle of Wal-Mart is not part of any of those stories.

I didn't convey my point correctly, which is that if the above stories were being run by a DM, the DM in those stories has created situations whereby he has supplied the hero with the exact items he needs to be heroic, thus negating the need for a magic item marketplace. If I think my character would rock with a +3 sword, and the DM gives one to my character, no one would have to go to Magic Mart. Most DMs don't always take that route, hell I was torn down in another thread for suggesting that DMs using a low magic item system should carefully place items instead of just randomly picking them, or making them up.

You are right that it is a bit silly that a character might browse through the catalog picking all his favorite magic items, but in a high-magic world it may not be all that uncommon to find curio/magic shops selling rare and amazing items. That doesn't quite fit with the intended feel of 5e (which could be compared to the realms of the stories you brought up), but there's a complex system for getting wealth, a LOT of tables... yet almost nothing to do with it. And yet what were they going to do with the loot that IS in the heroic stories of old? Well pretty much nothing if we're going by 5e.

As for establishing whether or not there's merit to the idea of shopping for magic items, in terns of literature, I think we should be looking more at Ed Greenwood (but not limited to) and less at Homer... considering the context of D&D.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Just like a chart in the PHB or DMG has "complete" lists of weapons, armor, goods or services available in game doesn't mean all those weapons, armors, goods or services are universally available in all stores at the prices listed, the fact that a functioning economy in magic items exists does not necessitate the existence of Thaum-Mart.

In all likelihood, all but the commonest items- things like potions- would remain relatively rare commodities, and only merchants specializing in similarly rare goods would have more than a few items for sale.

To put it differently, here in Texas, I can find all kinds of stores selling all kinds of guns. Finding rare, collectible or unusual guns, however, is a different story. A Cabellas' stock will be vast but mostly mainstream- nothing a collector would be interested in. Big Bear Guns may have a small vault of the rare stuff. But finding truly collectible firearms would require I find dealers who don't necessarily take out ads in the local press, or those who sell all kinds or rare items, like an auction house.

 

[Coredump]

But here is two popular tropes that are built around magic item shops and a break down of some good examples.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLittleShopThatWasntThereYesterday

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BazaarOfTheBizarre

It all depends on the setting and the story.

Neither of those equate to the 'Olde Magic Shoppe' concept. The Little Shop tends to be a one-off encounter where its very existence is a large part of the plot.

Most of the Bazaars are similarly unexpected, and in most shows where it is a 'normal' occurence are of the sillier or child variety.

 

[Coredump]

One you SHOULD know is no less iconic than some of the fiction mentioned- Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd & Grey Mouser stories include The Bazzar of the Bizzare,

And IIRC, that *wasn't* a magic shop... it was a con job. Reading the rest of the stories, there were no magic shops... magic items were carefully guarded and plot items, not sold down the street.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Conceptual identity isn't necessary if conceptual inspiration is sufficient.

 

[mlund]

Uses for gold:

- Fabricating claims on choice counties or duchies
- Hiring Mercenaries
- "Gifting" to approve vassal or liege opinions
- Creating or usurping Duchy and Kingdom titles
- Buying a Papal Indulgence
- Building additional holdings in your demesne

I mean, you're looking at like 600 or 700 gold and 2 years just to start to most bare-bones castl -

Oh, wait. Totally wrong game. My bad.


Seriously, though, if your D&D world buys into the whole faux feudalism motif then significant sums of gold become something relevant to the land-holders of the realm. We're talking about sums that can be exchanged for land and infrastructure. The "money is for peasants" matra of the landed nobility drops really quickly when you start talking about the kind of money that can rent an army of veteran mercenaries, siege a castle, and take the former occupant's head. Enough money makes land change hands one way or the other. Possession of land translates into control of the common law in a region - control over people.

While your PC probably isn't hording gold sufficient to usurp a county or kingdom it's pretty much a given that somebody out there (a legitimate claimant or otherwise) is trying to reach that point and other folks want to stop them. So really large sums of GPs represent potential energy in terms of political power. Sufficient quantities can, at least theoretically, be traded for anything else in a civilized society if your transaction eventually goes through a ruler. The defining characteristic of the ruler is holding a monopoly on violence / use of force in his or her realm, after all.

Sometimes its amusing to count your gold into stacks that approximate how much it would cost to buy the right to punch an obnoxious lordling in the nose without any legal woes. Personally, I prefer to keep it in small chests representing how much it would take to enable Count Alfonso to sack Count Bertold's keep and make sure his nephew Sir Cedric meets an unfortunate "accident" during the siege, but I'm strange and vindictive that way.

Marty Lund